De-lid PS3, now fans speed up to full blast in game.

Discussion in 'Hardware Mods' started by TheMadPolarBear, Feb 9, 2020.

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    TheMadPolarBear

    TheMadPolarBear Member

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    So I finally attempted a de-lid of the CELL and RSX on my CECHA01. Process went smoothly and I also implemented the 'eraser trick' as outlined by NakedSnake in order to make the CELL have better contact with the IHS.

    The PS3 boots fine in the XMB, it feels cold and the fans are running slowly. All this changes when I decided to test it during gameplay.

    Black Ops 1 was notorious for causing my PS3 to ramp up its fan speed in only 10-15 mins of gameplay. I figured it would be the perfect candidate to test my first ever de-lidded PS3. Unfortunately, by the time you get to the main menu, the PS3 quickly ramps up the fan through all the fan steps, though the console still feels pretty cool by the vents.

    The only thing I can think of is the RSX, I struggled with removing the adhesive glue from the memory chips. Alternatively, I wasn't sure which application to use for the thermal paste on the CELL/RSX die so I opted to spread the thermal paste across the die. Once the IHS was reattached, I used the small 'pea' method and let the heatsink do its thing to spread the thermal paste.

    Any suggestions? Was really pleased until I went to test gameplay.

    To add - the PS3 is on OFW, not CFW.

    Thanks for the help.
     
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    uyjulian

    uyjulian Developer

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    If there is no heat coming out of the vents, that means heat is not transferred.
    Use line method so that less bubbles are created. Be sure you start and end placing the thermal paste on the PCB, not the die.
     
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    TheMadPolarBear

    TheMadPolarBear Member

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    Thanks for the quick reply. I had a feeling this might have been the case.

    Hopefully since it's already been de-lid the IHS removal should be much easier this time or should just come off without needing to be cut again.

    Looks like i've got no choice.
     
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    Squiglemouse

    Squiglemouse Forum Noob

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    Once you do a delid so long as you don't use thermal adhesive they come off prettt easily. Only really being held in place by the surface tension of the paste.

    Edit:typo
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
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    Gabriel2Silva

    Gabriel2Silva Member

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    Delidding a fat is not that easy. The IHS will misalign pretty easily once you start reassembling the console. I had issues with that myself, ended up giving up on that phat console. Mine was so misaligned that it would go jet plane mode during bootup (PS3 logo), fans would go full blast and then it would YLOD due to extreme temps before loading the XMB completely. All of this due to a poorly made delid, I couldn't for the life of me position the IHS properly.

    You need a lot of patience for this task. Try again and focus on aligning them correctly.
     
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    TheMadPolarBear

    TheMadPolarBear Member

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    Yeah gonna give it another go. I'm sure it's a combination of the wrong method being used to apply thermal paste under the IHS (i spread it as opposed to the method I usually use on the IHS as outlined by uyjulian) and likely misalignment.

    Still, the hard part is done I suppose, so re-opening it to make adjustments to achieve the results I want shouldn't be too much trouble now.

    Thanks for the help.
     
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    ElGris

    ElGris Member

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    Did you remove the RSX IHS? If you don't clean that glue on the rams, the RSX will overheat for sure. But if you are not careful you can damage the RSX, protect it with some thin cardboard while doing that. Also, you are applying the thermal paste in the wrong way, and use good thermal paste also. You should install at least HFW to see the temps.

    Watch this:
     
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    TheMadPolarBear

    TheMadPolarBear Member

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    I didn't get the glue off so i'll try again tomorrow. The only thing I own that may be able to get the glue off is a flat head screw driver, so maybe that'll work?

    The guy in that video did the same thing I did for the CELL/RSX die (I use the pea method for the actual IHS though). I'm not sure if that's what is causing the problem or not.
     
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    ElGris

    ElGris Member

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    Try to use a razor blade, and protect the RSX die. And look the whole video, he applies the thermal paste using a spatula, on the die you have to be very careful.
     
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    wrx884

    wrx884 Member

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    Id say it wasn't even ur method on how u put the paste on but simply the thermal adhesive that wasn't removed from the rams and the bottom of the IHS and the IHS just didn't sit flat properly. do as suggested make sure u remove it entirely, use a little heat, it will soften the adhesive a lot and u can then use a blade (not screw driver) and it will cut through real easy.

    Same with the IHS on the CPU if u didnt do the same and the silicon adhesive (different from RSX adhesive) was still on the CPU and bottom of the IHS same rules apply and it may not sit 100% flat. This u can pretty much scrape off just with ur finger nails on cpu , but use the blade on IHS.

    Its personal preference on how u apply the paste as long as its not too much (too much is bad and can cause hotter temps). i dislike spreading the paste like above, so the pea size method u used on the IHS is fine, but on the BGAs dies about half the size of a pea is fine as it will spread all on its own to the outer edges. Give the clamps a slight bend to retain a little more pressure too.
     
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    TheMadPolarBear

    TheMadPolarBear Member

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    Thought i'd update this thread:

    I opened it again today after work and sure enough, the IHS was not making contact with the RSX PCB. The CELL was completely fine as expected.

    I cleaned it all up, tried to get as much of the old glue off the RSX memory, re-did the thermal paste the same way (as outlined in the videos you all provided) and then I ran the Black Ops 1 test I did in the OP. As mentioned, before I did the de-lid this game would cause my fans to ramp up within 5-10 minutes so I figured it would be a good game to stress.

    Unlike my first attempt post de-lid, where the fans ramped up all the speeds almost immediately when the game got to the main menu, the second attempt held steady at a low fan speed with warm/hot hair coming out of the vents (unlike before where it was cooler/cold). To me, this indicates that everything is working much better than before.

    That said, I'm still not convinced that I did the RSX correctly. It appears to be better this time as the fans are not ramping up (doesn't SYSCON kick in around 70-80 degrees and ramps it up drastically?) so I assume the temps must be below this. Obviously the only way for me to know would be CFW again. May need to do that just to be sure until i'm satisfied.

    Thanks for the advice, this forums got a great community! Still open to suggestions or comments.

    Thanks again all.
     
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    Gabriel2Silva

    Gabriel2Silva Member

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    SYSCON fan curves are really messed up, I don't know about exact values (@sandungas has a table on SYSCON fan speeds, I think), but my CECH-4011B Super Slim console reached 87ºC yesterday and the fans still wouldn't go beyond 30%. I don't know what triggers the jet plane mode but I think it's 90ºC+.

    That being said, I think you should install webman-MOD so you can increase your console lifetime. Sure, it is clean and repasted, but $ony fan software sucks so much I'm not even kidding. It completely ignores your thermals in order to give you a silent console. CFW or HFW, doesn't matter, it would be nice to have something to manage your fans and your temperatures. SYSCON will not prevent your console from going beyond the "maximum safe threshold" of 69ºC.
     
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    ElGris

    ElGris Member

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    You won't know if you don't at least install HFW. Check the temps and compare. BTW, something that I didn't tell you is that when you do a delid, you need to use a small piece of cardboard on the metal that covers the bottom side of the mobo. In that video that guy did it.

    Also, the spatula spreading is the best choice, because you can get the maximum contact on the IHS. I can't find the video, but NCS showed this.
     
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    pinky

    pinky Retired Developer

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    to be fair, microsoft did the same thing with the 360 - quiet console, but gets pretty hot. heck, the switch probably does it too. the only time I hear that fan is when there's no other sound.

    I don't play my 360 or ps3 really at all, but normally my 360 runs cooler simply due to thresholds and reapplying the thermal paste. my 360 runs at about 52 degrees C while idle, but my ps3 can get up to 68.
     
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    sandungas

    sandungas Moderator Developer

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    Well, yeah, the fan settings from the first PS3 models is a bit flawed, first problem is they seems to have less than 7 steps (other PS3 models have 15 or so), the temperature values that triggers the steps are very close to each others, and it seems the first step is very high temperature value (something over 70º)

    The result is the PS3 stays with aceptable noise levels for some minutes... and suddenlly it enters in turbine mode in a matter of 3 minutes
    And when you enter in a game it enters in turbine mode instantly

    This happens in OFW, at beginning they allows the PS3 to do a "preheat" (by using very low fan speeds), and sudenlly you are pushed into the higest speeds
    It looks like the PS3 have some problem, but is like that :/

    -------------
    The problem was the thermal glue/rubber of the memory chips at the RSX corners @TheMadPolarBear is needed to remove it very well... otherway is acting like an obstacle and doesnt allows the DIE to make a good contact with the IHS

    For the DIE is better to dont use an excess of thermal paste btw... just keep in mind you have 2 surfaces that are perfectly plane (DIE surface is plane at microscopical level, lol)... and the bottom of the IHS yeah very plane too (not at microscopical level, but pretty much)
    The point is the thermal paste doesnt needs to fill any "gap" or imperfections of the surfaces because are almost perfect plane

    In between the IHS top surface and the heatsink is better to add an excess of paste though... but this is because the heatsink surfaces are CRAP ! (full of scratches, not really plane)
    Whoever manufacturer that made that heatsinks it looks they was using this kind of technology
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2020
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    cabicosta

    cabicosta Forum Noob

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    Hi everyone :) would you suggest to put some biadhesive (hi-temps resistant) following the traces left from the silicon to retape the cell IHS?
     
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    sandungas

    sandungas Moderator Developer

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    Hmmm, some of that "bi-component" adhesives are made of epoxy, you should never use that with electronics because after it gets dry is imposible to unstick it

    There are other bi-component adhesives that are based on silicone though, i remember time ago i bought a thermal glue (that was completly white) and after dry it was gummy like a thermal pad
    I some way it was like creating custom thermal pads with paste

    Anyway, you dont need to spend much money in this... just use standard silicone, there is one used in cars (usually orange color) to isolate the cabinet from the external noises
    That thing resists more than 200ºC and is gummy (easy to remove incase you need to remove it at some point)

    ----------
    Also, dont add a lot of it, as example, from factory the PS3 CELL have a "cord" of silicone all around it, you dont need that
    With 4 "dots" of silicone in the corners is enought
     
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    wrx884

    wrx884 Member

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    u can use a thermal adhesive thats an epoxy just make sure u read its data sheet before u use it and find out its cure strength number. i use one from arctic silver that has a mild strength that i put on the RSX's rams just the same way like it was done from factory. This stuffs good as u can remove it fairly easy with little effort. U could use it on the cell too if u wanted, if ur worried about scraping it off and causing damage, u can remove it with just a general purpose thinner so u dont damage anything. But all this is extra costs so thats something to take into account if ur worried about that.

    If u choose to use a silicon adhesive just make sure its a natural curing one, if its not the properties in them can damage components and metals in time. I actually use one thats an automotive one i seal most of my engine work with, has hi temp protection too so cant go wrong.
     
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    sandungas

    sandungas Moderator Developer

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    This gave me an idea, what do you think about it ?, maybe you tryed before, is intended for RSX deliding
    The goal is to "weaken" the adhesive of the memory chips at the corners of RSX

    1) Place the motherboard in a vertical position
    2) Pour 1 small drop of that "general purpose thinner" in the 2 corners of RSX most at top
    3) Wait 24 hours
    4) Pour 1 small drop of that "general purpose thinner" in the 2 corners of RSX most at top
    5) Wait 24 hours
    6) If needed flip the motherboard and do the same with the other 2 RSX corners


    Be careful with the choosen "general purpose thinner", there are some that are very aggresive chemically, as example
    There is one "solvent" used to remove the painting from wood (like a door painted tenths of times along tenths of years)... is a liquid you apply to the painting, then wait a couple of hours and you are going to see how the old painting makes "bubbles"... and after that you can remove it easylly by scratching it... and the result is the wood looks nice
    That thing is able to degrade the epoxy (i used it in a xbox360 drive to remove the protective epoxy blob covering a chip that was needed to solder in)
    Dont use this kind of solvent in the CELL/RSX because the DIE have epoxy all around
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2020
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    wrx884

    wrx884 Member

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    I have tried this before the issue is the thinner doesn't penetrate the adhesive under there enough to do whats needed so over time it can re set and go hard again. Remember it does evaporate on its own so the only way to get it to work at all is by submerging it in an ultrasonic cleaner that can vibrate it loose but i dont know if u can use thinner in these machines?, some chemicals can react and catch fire LOL, i only use IPA in mine. u would also need a decent size ultrasonic cleaner so due to just the size alone it can be expensive so the other methods we commonly use is still best way IMO.

    Yeah the thinner ur talking about is an actual paint stripper designed to do exactly that, strip paint. The general purpose one is mild and takes a lot more effort to remove cured paint and is generally not worth it so u are fine using this one. Always check the data sheet of the product if ur ever not sure this will tell u how strong its properties are.
     
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