Question regarding CELL Processor

Discussion in 'General PS3 Discussion' started by HavokMaster, May 15, 2019 at 12:16 PM.

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    HavokMaster

    HavokMaster Forum Noob

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    I know the cell processor is really powerful but very hard to develop for. Very few companies mastered it like naughty dog. So the question is at what extent they utilized the cells power and can homebrew at some point help us achieve more of the cell??

    If so can multitasking be a thing can we increase fps in games? Even by 2-3 fps?

    Just curious!
     
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    ISAK.M

    ISAK.M Member

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    Hmm, multitasking will most likely NEVER be a thing since it's simple to weak to do that + software and hardware were not developed for that and we don't have the source code for GameOS or anything, so we can't do such a radical thing.

    When ReneRebé has finished his RSX hardware acceleration in PS3 Linux, we might increase performance a bit, but not really that much.
    It will take time for sure, but yes Homebrew can potentially take advantage of the RSX's extra power when hardware acceleration has been achieved. Cell BE on the other hand, maybe. :D
     
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    umart666

    umart666 Member

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    ND mastered the rsx,cell isn't that much limiting factor in later games and ports,rsx is,so in those games there isn't room for improvement,other than somebody developing a whole replacement board with much more powerful graphics chip,or SoC that can do it all in hardware like Analogue did for 8 and 16bit consoles.both methods i sincerely doubt we will see if not ever,then in time that would matter.emulation is where's at,and very small chance that PS5 would have BC with ps3 games and they will invest in proper emu development for something that they already discarded.

    that's why so many people here are investing in the ps3 and proper maintenance,jailbreaks and stuff because it still is the most complete solution in one box for gaming.it's also the best companion for CRT's there is,essentially making it as good as proper smart TV.
     
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    ISAK.M

    ISAK.M Member

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    Exactly, we can't improve the Hardware in any way. It is the way it is.
     
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    Naked_Snake1995

    Naked_Snake1995 Senior Member

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    CELL Broadband Engine or as commonly know CELL B/E, was a processor based on the PowerPC architecture, with a very unique design.

    The CELL architecture, includes a memory coherence, in order to maintain power efficiency, by prioritizing bandwidth over low latency, favouring peak computional power over the simplicity of program coding, thus gaining a reputation as being over-complicated to develop for, as many Multiplataform Titles, preformed poorly, due to the overcomplex coding and optimization, something that 3rd Party Developers where not used nor they wanted to waste time, due to time and budget constraints, as the processor itself wasnt meant for gaming applications,but rather for Scientific/Cluster Computing and Multimedia Encoding.

    Unlike the X86 Architecture, which containded a Single or Multi-Core/Threaded Design, the CELL B/E utilized a Single-Core design,accommodating One PPE (Power Processing Elements), clocked at 3.2GHz and Eight SPEs (Synergistic Processing Elements), One SPE was reserved for the OS/Security and another to improve manufacturing yeilds.

    RAM wise, the PlayStation3 used a Split Memory Design, the CELL B/E was paired with 256Mb XDR RAM, having the same clock speed as the CELL B/E (3.2GHz), the CELL B/E PPE has 64Kb LV1 and 512Kb LV2 respectively, while the SPEs has 256Kb per SPE, making a total of 2MB, making it to achieve a 230.4 GFLOPS in Single Precision Floating Point operations and up to
    15 GFLOPS in Double Precision Floating Point.

    Sony´s first party studios where familiarizing themselfs with the CELL B/E, eventualy untaping the CELLs hidden potential, Naughty Dog, its a good example of a First Party Studio that used the CELL at its peak efficiency, being that the 2007 Uncharted only utilized 30% of the CELLs Power, following Uncharted 2 with 45~55% E
    fficacy, and with 2013 The Last Of Us, has achieved a 100% Efficacy on the CELL B/E, thus with time CELL B/E supported high-resolution textures,as the early PS3 titles didn´t support or wasnt properly implemented, as it would penalize is efficacy and performance.
     
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    Peppe90

    Peppe90 Member

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    Plus you can play some good online games… gratis.
     
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    Cypher_CG89

    Cypher_CG89 Senior Member

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    The next GEN PlayStation console is not BC compatible with PS3 games, only PS4 games as the hardware is based on the PS4. But much, much more powerfull. It has a power top of the range AMD Radeon Navi GPU and a powerfull AMD Ryzen based 8 core processer. It uses advanced grahics ( Ray Tracing ) that at the min have only been used for lighting in movies and such but could be used for many other things.

    This next gen PS is ridiculasly powerfull and supports up to 8K in resolution in video and in gaming, but obviously this will be dependant on current HDTV tech to catch up.

    Also they will come as standard with SSD drives, games loading time have been tested using a PS4 dev kit and the next gen PS dev kit>

    PS4 game BO3 (Black Ops 3) on the PS4 dev kit takes about 15 - 20 seconds to load.
    Same game on the new PS dev kit 1 - 3 seconds to load.

    Also its not comfirmed that it will be called the " PS5 " but logic would say that they would call it this.
     
    Last edited: May 15, 2019 at 7:59 PM
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    umart666

    umart666 Member

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    that ryzen chip can run circles around cell emu,it's not really a hardware or raw power issue,issue is that sony doesn't see incentive to do it as their hardware is selling just fine without it.
     
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    amirzaim

    amirzaim Member

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    CELL CPU are notoriously hard to program but some games can be managed to get full 60fps with heavy graphics like GT5/GT6, Metal Gear Rising, etc. Even there is a handbook about how to program applications with PS3 cpu.

    In fact, there are some parties are had been using PS3s for research purposes only such as US Army had been set up its cluster server with 1000 units of PS3 consoles and now they stopped it and some of these units are scattered through ebay.
     
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    Infiltraitor

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    I too would like to see it working for multitasking, as to improve remote play and possibly stream on the PS3 on platforms like Twitch or Facebook Gaming? If it would take overclocking something on a PS3 to achieve it, it could be a potential risk of overheating i guess.
     
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    HavokMaster

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    Yes exactly this is what made me ask that question. If the US military can use the phat ps3s at an inferior firmware with most of the consoles ability locked why cant we do the same.

    But my question is answered now thanks guys!
     
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    sandungas

    sandungas Moderator Developer

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    And im pretty sure is going to be based on "zen2" (the second revision of zen arquitecture that is about to be presented in public in the next months or so with the 3xxx series)

    The point is the zen2 is going to be manufactured with the main die in 14nm and the "chiplets" in 7nm... and are separated
    But for the PS5 thats not convenient... what they are going to do is to use a derivate of the "mobile" zen apus that are a single die but actually are build at 12nm (the reduction of zen apus to 7nm is supposed to happen in 2021 or so)

    Sony doesnt have that hurry to reduce the die size to 7nm (this is something they will do along the first 2 or 3 years of PS5 production)
    Most probably the first PS5 models will be 14nm... or 12nm... you know, to keep the manufacturing costs under control

    What they really needs is the zen2 arquitecture... is a bet for the future because later they cant "update" it... so is a decission they need to do before releasing the first PS5 model to public
    Im pretty sure sony have prototypes of that zen2 apus months ago and are at full asking AMD for new samples constantly, lol

    ------------
    And yeah, i think the PS5 is going to be a very big jump in performance, that new APUs are awesome, and keep in mind AMD is building some prototypes exclusivelly for sony (and microsoft) where they decides the width of the buses, cache sizes, and other internal subcircuits to "customize" them for consoles
    So are going to be more powerfull than the PC counterparts because are going to be "designed for gaming"
     
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    snkplkn

    snkplkn Forum Noob

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    Why worry about BC? Sony has been releasing "remastered" versions of most popular PS3 titles for PS4. And trend will continue for PS5. Good PS3 titles will continue to be recasted for PS5. Of course if you want your PS3 Discs that you purchased for PS3 to play on new PS5, then that's a problem. But if you just wanna play most popular PS3 titles on PS5, they will most likely remade for PS5 just like PS3 to PS4 remakes are happening presently.
     
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    snkplkn

    snkplkn Forum Noob

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    I think its a strategy of companies to create hype about "power" of their consoles & how its better than conventional PC gaming. I would be happy to see actual results, rather than tall claims. Comparing the latest PC CPU/GPU chips with Sony's "exclusive" hardware, that would be the real benchmark.

    I personally would prefer PC over a console because Consoles are CLOSED gated system. You are locked in consoles forever. I know people are fans of exclusives, and that's one obvious advantage of consoles. But the way console makers lock in consumers in their own hardware and software. Doesn't look fair to me.
     
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    ISAK.M

    ISAK.M Member

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    Gratis? Are you from Sweden dude?
     
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    umart666

    umart666 Member

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    there countless good even classic games that wont be remastered or remade for new systems,all through history,even in ps3 era,not to say there's exeptionally bad remasters/remakes.personally BC is the most important thing for me,that's why i still have my cechc.
     
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    ISAK.M

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    Same for me, BC is everything, that's why it was horrible for me when I lost my CECHC04 and I got a Slim CECH2003A, because I didn't want YLOD to kill my console again.
     
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    umart666

    umart666 Member

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    more often than not BC and semi BC systems can be sorted out by replacing caps (not to terrible fix to do even by yourself,any semi competent repair guy could do it in like 30 minutes) and with deliding you would have nice,reliable and quiet system.
     
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    Peppe90

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    A little further South… Italia. Google translator gave me both gratis/free :D
     
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    sandungas

    sandungas Moderator Developer

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    The way how AMD is working with console manufactures is like in a restaurant, AMD gives them a list of the internal "blocks" of the zen arquitecture and the console manufactures are like... "i want this and that, but pour more sauce in that point, remove the garlic and add onion"
    Is a custom design, based in the recipes the cooker knows to do, but very well "tunned" for gaming

    There are things that are not needed for consoles, like the multithreading, and the CPU core frequency is low, with a CPU core of 2000mhz or so is enought for a console
    They focuses more in bandwithds, caches, memory speeds, etc...

    At the time the PS5 will be released the most closer comparison are going to be the zen "mobile" and "pro mobile" apus used in laptops, there are a few on sale right now (not much) and have good performance in games, the bottleneck they have is zen rams are "capped" to 2400mhz ram (a bit more with overclocking) and the performance is very dependapnt to the ram frequency, but there are rumors the next zen series is going to allow ram speeds of 5000mhz
    Zen2 is going to be also the first hardware supporting PCIe gen 4... that i guess they are going to use it with a high speed NVMe hdd (a chip soldered to the motherboard used as "onboard system storage")

    The NAVI GPU is a mistery though.. but is suppossed to be better than VEGA, and VEGA was good, only flaw it had was the temperature on dedicated graphic cards, but the "embedded" vegas was not so hot... are so good that intel is using them (this is funny btw, intel buying graphic chips from AMD)

    In some way the console manufacturers are lucky there are some new technologies that are about to become "mainstream" and are at a perfect timing to design and build very nice consoles in the next gen (and luckly we will get rid of the overheating problems, because are going to be very efficient too)
    But most probably AMD have an agreement with them to "lock" (or delay) some technologies for one or couple of years to make them exclusive for consoles
    You know... this is the dirty part of the bussiness, sony and microsoft doesnt wants AMD to release an APU 1 months after the the release of the next gen consoles and beat them "on day one"
    Is like an agreement where AMD signs a contract that says... "ok im not going to ruin your bussiness in the first years"
     
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