PS3 Tutorial - NEC/TOKIN Capacitors Replacement - YLOD FIX

Discussion in 'Tutorials & Guides' started by Naked_Snake1995, Jul 15, 2019.

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    sandungas

    sandungas Moderator Developer

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    Yes i think, and i think it should even work replacing all tokins by electrolitic capacitors
     
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    SiegHart93

    SiegHart93 Member

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    I have many electrolitic capacitors with values such as 2200uf 6.3v and 1200uf 6.3v will these caps values work ?
     
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    Edwired

    Edwired Member

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    i say safely start with 1200uf first and work your way up
     
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    Edwired

    Edwired Member

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    Here the video i was talking about about testing the nec tokin i dont know what language he speaks but he showed how to test the nec tokin when it not in circuit meaning it taken off the ps3. He shown the multimeter what setting he had it on :)
    look at 6:35 you see the value pop up


    Even found this mad looking thing it basically mini hot air gun can hit 200c as they say and it have small nozzle which i say look can take nec tokin off the ps3 without hurting anything else

    https://www.ebay.ie/itm/300W-Mini-H...968735?hash=item26171460df:g:yXAAAOSwJD1cidRO
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2019
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    wrx884

    wrx884 Member

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    Also dont forget we had squeept show that we could half the uF value needed so we should still be able to boot the console with even 2400uF per BGA

    unfortunately this wont be any good we need 217* to be able to even melt the solder but even then u need the unit to at least heat up to 250* minimum so the boards temp can reach 217* to remove the tokins.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
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    blackjack4it

    blackjack4it Member

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    Edwired

    Edwired Member

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    it be close enough to nearly melt the solder unless we used some sort of flux
     
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    sandungas

    sandungas Moderator Developer

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    Yes, personally i would try with the biggest capacitance first, just to make the testing faster
    Actually, if you find a single electrolitic capacitor of 4800 uf @ 2.5v (or more) i would use that one for the tests

    The worst thing that could happen by using a total capacitance too big is the processor doesnt gets any voltage in the first miliseconds

    Lets say... the power rail is like a water pipe, and the capacitor is like a water tank... and the processors can empty the water tank
    At milisecond 1 (inmediatly when you turn on the PS3) the water starts flooding, but the water tank is empty
    And lets say... the water tank needs 80 miliseconds to fill with water
    So... the processor only gets water after 80 miliseconds (not before)
    This could cause the processor to not boot correctly
    But i think we should not worry about this, because there is many people that soldered a lot of tantalum capacitors of 470 uf and they exceeded by a lot the original capacitance from factory... and the PS3 was working fine... so is ok ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    Just keep in mind the example i mentioned... creating a huge "water tank" could cause problems

    He sets the multimeter into a scale of 2000 microfarads... this means the max value it can meassure in that mode is 2000 uf
    The tokins are either 1000 or 1200 so is ok to meassure them offcircuit in that range (up to 2000)
    But if you meassure them incircuit you are meassuring the 4 tokins together, and his value should be either 4000 uf or 4800 uf
    Im not so sure about this, someone confirmed it ?
    Im sure the engineers used a value that excceeds a bit the requirements (as security margin), but i really doubt the requirements are so low

    I would say... if the group of 4 tokins had a total of 4000 uf from factory probably with 3200 uf is going to work, but going lower than that and it should not work
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
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    wrx884

    wrx884 Member

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    na it wont, ur right with needing to use flux but its the ground points on the board that are the pain as they take longer to heat up the boards surface area. but if u can achieve 217* board temp or more (not actual heating element temp) then it will work but i think this one will struggle.

    unless low melt alloy or even lead solder is used it may work as then we only need 165* but its not going to be easy to get these to flow under the tokin caps well? i could be wrong tho as i haven't tried this method with my wand, id prefer to use my IR rework stations bottom heating element then finish with the wand on top.

    yeah man few pages back he posted up videos and removed the tokin caps 1 by 1 until the machine YLOD and that was only till he got to remove the 5th one on the board that happened.

    Edit: they are on page 31, looking back the console did boot and showed video then YLOD with the 5th one removed but still did boot.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
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    Edwired

    Edwired Member

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    yeah he did show that video as he taken them out one by one beside the point of just booting to the screen with no hard drive which is pointless to be honest what he should have done was boot gran turismo 6 or last of us to see while taking the nec tokin one by one to see if that would trigger ylod

    Same thing in a pc cpu it like lowering the vcore so much the pc barely boots and becomes unstable as it starved of less power to function
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
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    wrx884

    wrx884 Member

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    yeah ur right but the point being made here is that the console should still boot with only 2400uF on board which is handy for consoles that are already in YLOD state with this issue to at least get them working then diagnose further. So in theory if this is correct we could just replace 1 full side, if the console doesnt boot we could almost suggest the issue lays elsewhere?? saying this we only saw this on a VER motherboard, mayb the symptoms will be different on the other 1st gen boards?
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
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    Edwired

    Edwired Member

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    my 50x 2.5v 470uf slim caps arrived in the post this morning gonna have to wait till next week hopely to have the other ps3 as well
     
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    Edwired

    Edwired Member

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    Just been practicing on my busted board with desoldering braid it abit tricky to get the old solder off so just used plenty of liquid flux it became a lot easier after that. What I'm trying to do is get the tan cap flat as possible without the bumpy looking solder on the board
     
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    Edwired

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    Naked_Snake1995

    Naked_Snake1995 Senior Member

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    NEC/TOKIN wants to know your location
    You can even can go above and beyond, ive heard and seen lads removing the CELL B/E Heatspreader with a Beverages Aluminium Can, cut in a Thin Foil, but like a Razor, perfectly flat and with Kerosene, sounds stupid but it works, although you'll have to be gentle, not to cut yourself, with that Aluminium Sheet Foil,although ive never tried myself.

    But what i wanted to try is with a Thin Fishing Line, by creating friction between the line and the epoxy, should cut it in a nice slice, without even worrying about the CELL, but that could take hours

    Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
     
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    Edwired

    Edwired Member

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    As we are taking like of a gap real thin im not too sure of a fishing line lol
     
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    David Collette

    David Collette Forum Noob

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    Edwired

    Edwired Member

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    The one i got are the slim not tall either i posted the link a few page back these are seems suitable most i seen are too tall or chunky.

    The plastic nec tokin cover side by side to the 2.5v 470uf tan cap it shows that tan cap is shorter in height about the size of smallest sewing needle
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2019
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    squeept

    squeept Forum Noob

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    "That "What?" line is what i though of your "Towel Trick" comparasion, how on this earth, working with the soldering iron has anything related to the BGA Grid itself, are you going to say now that the heat produced by the Iron makes the BGA Grid go soft? Hmmmmmm...never heard of that anywhere lad."

    I've repeated this about a dozen times now. It doesn't have to "go soft" for the board to warp a microscopic amount, the same way it doesn't have to "go soft" to crack in the first place. It's a microscopic crack. Microscopic. Turning the screws on the heatsink clamps an extra 10 degrees when re-assembling will make a difference. Laying the board across your workbench at a different angle will warp it enough to make a difference.

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    "I was not sure which name to use for them, but the name "stands off" fits well with his purpose"

    The chip will usually bend up in the corners, so I think those little guys are just for helping with proper alignment/height during initial assembly. Lead free solder doesn't self-align with wetting force as nicely as leaded, so assuming you're using lead when replacing anything, I'd say they're unnecessary.

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    "Thought someone on another forum it impossible to get a reading when the nec tokin was in circuit"

    You can usually read a correct ESR in circuit. Capacitance and resistance will usually not. I'm working on a way to measure them while still on the board, but it will only be possible while the corresponding BGA package is off of the board, and you will have to remove a few more tiny surface mount components to isolate the caps on the board. I have COK-001, COK-002, and VER-001 figured out, I'll get pictures up later. You'll get total capacitance of all 4 obviously and any shorts or ESR will still be useful measurements.
    This will let anyone verify that the tokins are totally fine while they are reballing the actual issue.

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    "it missing a bunch of real tiny caps on the rsx side"

    Almost all of those little guys are in parallel with each other, and in fact, if I remember correctly they are in parallel with the TOKIN caps... They're just filters for RF noise, I think. One for each via on 1.2V_RSX_VDDC from the bottom TOKINS. I'd be surprised if the console couldn't run generally pretty okay without them.

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    "Can i piggy back a electrolitic capacitor on tokin to testing purposes bro?"

    If nobody listens to anything else I say, please pay attention to this: do not use electrolytics in place of the TOKIN caps. They're high speed filter caps for switching power supplies. If you're not using low ESR caps, they're going to burn themselves out ridiculously fast. If you force me to guess, I'd say they would overheat and pop within an hour. The tokin caps have roughly 1 milliohm ESR, while a plain electrolytic cap can have an ESR of around 5 or 10 ohms. Depending on the frequency of the switching power supply, this will generate an absolute fuckton of heat.

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    "Even found this mad looking thing it basically mini hot air gun can hit 200c as they say and it have small nozzle which i say look can take nec tokin off the ps3 without hurting anything else"

    You really should be pre-heating the board if you are using hot air on them. This will drastically reduce the heat required to be applied directly. You're running a dangerously large chance of causing delamination of the internal layers of the board by applying such a high temperature locally.

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    "yeah he did show that video as he taken them out one by one beside the point of just booting to the screen with no hard drive which is pointless to be honest"

    I mean, the title of this thread is "YLOD fix" and I showed a console booting without YLOD missing half the TOKINs, so at this point the goal posts have been moved out of the stadium. I have an extra reballed CECHE01 I use to test spare drives with, I'll sacrifice it when I have an EXTRA extra ready and I can take new videos.

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    REMOVING TOKINS INTACT: You can't use hot air on most plastic parts. The temperature spikes are too much. Hot air tools that are capable of keeping tight enough tolerances on their output are prohibitively expensive. I'd be surprised if even a decent 3 zone rework system could remove a plastic part without damage if it's using hot air on top. A preheater and IR top heat is the only way that they're coming off without damage.
     
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    Edwired

    Edwired Member

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    Jesus christ it the Antichrist again please give me a break it just a post I mentioned you think I'm going to buy the mini heat gun to just upset you jeez take a chill pill
     

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