PS3 Tutorial - NEC/TOKIN Capacitors Replacement - YLOD FIX

Discussion in 'Tutorials & Guides' started by Naked_Snake1995, Jul 15, 2019.

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    squeept

    squeept Forum Noob

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    I understand that everyone wants to believe that there is a simple fix that doesn't require expensive tools or paying for professionals. I understand that some of you don't want me to be right because I'm an asshole. Either way at this point, every claim in this thread blaming the TOKINs has been completely debunked. I'd like if this was un-stickied, since it's encouraging people without the proper tools or skills to get in way over their heads. You've got people literally asking how to solder so they can try. My only interest, as I stated from the start, is that I don't want to do extra work. But I've already got people asking me if my consoles have had the TOKINs replaced, and I'm the one that's going to have to clean up all the butchered work from Walmart soldering irons when scammers unload them on eBay and lie about not having worked on them.

    The only way I was able to trigger YLOD was to either completely remove all 4 of them from one chip, or soldering a wire dead short to ground. Verifiable and repeatable experiment. Nobody has shown a single TOKIN that is more than 20% out of spec, or any that have shorted out.

    I was never able to trigger a random crash. Verifiable and repeatable expiriment. Only after removing 3 out of 4 GPU TOKINs was I able to get anything to crash, and it was always at the same point. Not random.

    I've provided multiple ways to measure them now. Nobody has shown a single failed TOKIN. Not one. I can keep showing an endless stream of verifiable functioning caps.

    The "tests" that others keep mentioning prove nothing. You're heating or flexing the board in one way or another, so it's meaningless. End of story. Not one person yet has tried the weight test prior to having "success" replacing the TOKINs.

    You all now have the methods needed to actually show me a failed TOKIN. I'm not going to hold my breath. I think everyone wins here if we're just honest about it: it's the towel trick / washer trick with extra steps. If you want a cheap fix that might last quite awhile, just add a shim for extra pressure while you're in there and be done with it. It's less work for both of us, and you're not going to risk permanently damaging anything.
     
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    TheMadPolarBear

    TheMadPolarBear Forum Noob

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    Curious results, though it just poses more questions to me. Was always under the impression that YLOD was caused by the solder cracking in the PS3's but after finding this thread, it gave me hope that I could repair my CECHC03 by replacing the capacitors.

    Removing the capacitors seems to be tricky. I see a lot of videos of people using a knife and getting the plastic case off is easy enough but the actual capacitor is proving difficult.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2019
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    Edwired

    Edwired Member

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    Since we seen evidences either replacing tokin for tan caps or reballing the chip but there been cases when reballing is done heat damage is done to surrounding smd so the way I see it it 50/50 each way
     
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    TheMadPolarBear

    TheMadPolarBear Forum Noob

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    I'll probably try the capacitor replacements regardless but removing the NEC Tokin's is proving to be very difficult, even with a knife. Any tips or recommendations for their removal?
     
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    Edwired

    Edwired Member

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    I tried with a surgical knife since it thin enough to get under and wiggle is back and forth seem to do the trick but trouble starts if the blade breaks before the nec tokin it becomes a pain to get off as well if too much force is applied will result missing caps near the nec tokin.

    Since i seen some videos shows heatgun been used as well woodwork chisel with abit of force it abit risky when used as could cut pcb track
     
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    wrx884

    wrx884 Member

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    This probably shouldnt even be discussed here as it will just create that same debate again but If reballing is done correctly what heat damage are u referring too? im not sure if u have reballed urself but there are ways, steps needed to be taken to protect such components so all heat transfer needed is only met on the BGA site, so i kinda fail to see how u reach it being a 50/50?

    Im not saying we dont have any evidence of the tokins being able to help repair certain consoles as the proof in the pudding is, there is some consoles out there that have had success but these are not the majority here? like u cant even measure that to know for sure lol.

    YLOD comes in many many forms if u do some research u will find multiple causes.
     
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    Edwired

    Edwired Member

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    I know what you saying it just i dont own a shop with equipment that deals with reballing or anything like that. I was just thinking out loud on personal experience. Would be nice if we have solid information what could be the real cause of the problem than soaking the match with gasoline. Then again what i mean is 50/50 of anything would be the cause of ylod
     
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    ConfyScenty

    ConfyScenty Forum Noob

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    Wow! It's been a tough contest but yeah... everyone's winning.
     
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    SiegHart93

    SiegHart93 Member

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    noob question about the tokins ! if we solder 4 tantalums caps in parallel with the tokins they will work together ? i mean the capacitance of the tokin will be added to the tantallums ? or its more safer to completely remove the tokin (like i did on my cechl01) and then solder the tantallums alone ? because as i said before i have a CECHE01 yloding on demanding games and have the issue of the 3 beeps red blinking led (no ylod) when turning off the console. Thanks in advance
     
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    motivman

    motivman Forum Noob

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    hi guys, interested in getting this done on my CECHE01, shuts down with 3 blinking red lights while playing GT6, sometimes shutsdown with TLOU, I noticed it shuts down in only very graphics intensive areas... I have already delidded RSX and CELL, so not overheating... however I want to order these caps... are they good equivalents to the tantalums?

    https://www.ebay.com/itm/470uF-2-5V...IC-NTP477M2-5TRV-12-F-RoHS-20pcs/183928263535
     
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    xNameleSSx

    xNameleSSx Forum Noob

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    Hello. i just registered to add something here (sorry for my english)
    There can be a difference between faulty and completely missing component in electric chain. There can be some completely different problems than reduced capacity - parasitic resistance or even internal shortcircuit for example. That NEC/TOKIN seems pretty complex in comparison to traditional capacitor.

    I just a DIY/enthusiast, so i lack a proper education, knowledge or experience to really argue something. I just thinking.
     
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    nCadeRegal

    nCadeRegal Moderator

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    @squeept I appreciate the time and effort and research you have put into this. That being said I will not unstick this thread as you have asked. This is a research thread it will remain to see results, that is what research is. You have shown one working example of a console that has millions and millions sold, each with there own lifestyle and unique set of circumstances. So how by showing one is this debunked? You have given a good baseline to base future tests against that is all.

    We get it you have an investment in the repair scene but are we coming to knock down your door for your theories or practices? As I explained to you earlier we are a community of like minded individuals working together to help further the knowledge of our beloved consoles. Like seriously take a step back and look at that first paragraph you tried and say to yourself how that is like minded and helping further this thread? It doesn’t , it’s your opinion and one that doesn’t care to hear or even think that anything else could be causing this other than needing a reball.
     
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    sp193

    sp193 Developer

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    With respect, he has a point. This fix was not validated, but yet it was being promoted. That was the impression I got, after reading the first post. There was nothing in it, that explained how the discovery came about. Or that it was still a research project, rather than a new fix that actually solves peoples' problems. Instead, it is laced with statements like "94% of the YLOD" and "last you for years to come". So how long has this been trialed for? What about those sets that have never broken down after other fixes? Why do people still invest in those fixes, if they are so ineffective (instead of replacing the whole console, especially in the 2010s).

    Even if you do not wish to unstick it, I think OP should clarify how he came to this conclusion and explain the limitations of his research. Even if he cannot prove/disprove why this fix works, maybe somebody else could. Whenever we write a report of an experiment, it needs to explain things like the steps taken, the observations and its limitations. Other people should be able to replicate the results of the experiment.

    Of course, if it really does solve 94% of all YLOD cases in years to come, then you just won the Internet. Great job! But you should still explain yourself properly.
     
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    squeept

    squeept Forum Noob

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    That would all be shown by the oscilloscope, which is why I gave a set of baseline images (verified on two other backwards compatible consoles to be identical) of the behavior of a full, healthy set.

    I've also pulled dozens of them intact from YLOD consoles where reballing did not help. These are the consoles that, according to this thread, should absolutely have issues with them. I measured capacitance, resistance, and ESR. One of those metrics will change on any unhealthy capacitor, and I have not seen one that drifted out of the parameters given on the datasheet.
     
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
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    squeept

    squeept Forum Noob

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    The claim was lost capacitance causes YLOD and crashes, so I lost most of the capacitance and it didn't YLOD or crash. I don't know what more you need there.

    If there is some other claim in this thread that I haven't wholly addressed, please cite a specific one and I'll get back to work.

    It's a little frustrating that I keep providing mountains of actual evidence, only ever to be met by "yeah, but...." at every turn. Meanwhile, everyone else just has to make vague assertions with no proof and everyone agrees. If these capacitors are so frequently failing, at least one person would have been able to show me a failed one by now.
     
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    Edwired

    Edwired Member

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    Only way we all have to settle this debate if everyone have matching pair of ps3 like cechc03 ylod compare to a fully working cechc03 and so on that way we can all do comparing on testing value, voltage, uf reading this way we all come together as a group than fighting over who wins the contest as it already getting out of hand since then if everyone agreed to this
     
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    jacobsson

    jacobsson Member

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    With out a doubt subject has proven to be much more complex than its original post describes.

    At this stage we have observed machines stopped crashing to YLOD after getting some of their NEC tokins replaced, we have also seen YLOD machines getting revived by reballing. Do we really have to dispute these statements at this point? I personally don't think so.

    @squeept I don't know how big you interest is in continuing pursuing this subject, but I must say you've an essential component of this debate, w/o opposition there wouldn't be a debate, and no tests would have been documented here. So really, thank you!

    To me at least, I think the next step would be to find a machine that YLODs mid game and record measurements of CPU, GPU and NEC tokins just before an YLOD event. My understanding is that seem to be a typical kind of machine that to responds well to NEC replacements.
     
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    sandungas

    sandungas Moderator Developer

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    All the people that have reported success by only replacing the tokins, how do you explain that ?
    His PS3's was not working properly, they replaced the tokins (usually by rude ways) and they fixed it
    So obviously they had a problem in the tokins

    You suggested they fixed their PS3's just because they overheated that area of the motherboard, or because they bend the motherboard... but you know that is very unprobable

    Also, the heat could affects capacitors only while they are hot, as you mentioned before, and i agree with that

    Overal i like your technical posts, and im fine with your inquisitor attitude (im used to it)... we are talking about science and the facts wins :)
    There is no need to be polite, being neutral is ok... just present your arguments


    ---------
    *personally i would not have sticked the thread, i think the thread is fine, but it belong more to the hardware subforum
     
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    xNameleSSx

    xNameleSSx Forum Noob

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    Looks like die-to-substrate failure to me. Its very interesting to see RSX voltage under load in a console with a in-game YLOD crashes. Capacitors may looks fine but still become unstable under load in some way(?). Im from easter europe/russia and a NEC/TOKIN fix known here for years already. But nobody knows how it works and nobody has a proper statistics for that.
     
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    squeept

    squeept Forum Noob

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    That's literally one of the ways I identify BGA issues. With the board in a jig, I place a small weight on top of the heatsink then check if it will work. I'll get another video once I run in to another one. It will be about a week, I have quite a few Segas torn down right now that I need to finish first.
     

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