PS3 CECHA PS3 YLOD Saga

Cypher_CG89 said:
As I have already mentioned the issue is most likely RAM related, when you were arguing with someone else about it being an electrical component fault. This kind of fault would affect all functions of the console.

If you knew what you were talking about you would already know this is most likely dew to low availability of RAM. And would have mentioned this before now. But since your theory has been dismissed you then change your mind.

You also suggested removing components from the motherboard to electricly test which is an obserd idea as you will most likely cause fatal damage to the board and kill your system.

Reinstalling the firmware is the quickest and simplest way to remove anything that is actively interfering, or using the systemOS RAM and gameOS RAM and also removing all Homebrew and reinstalling the basics to reduce all the use aswell.

You also mentioned that the games were released without proper testing and this triggered the issue... this is the biggest verbal crap I have ever heard, if that were true this would happen on any console. And I have never had this issue on my PS3 with OFW, just the one on CFW. And I know for a fact games are fully tested before releasing them (I used to work in the industry making and developing games for a job) but even this testing doesn't show all bugs, they rely on consumers to report issues as everyone plays games differently.

You then said the firmware causes this bug then next post saying it's RAM? after I corrected you. make your mind up.

You don't know what you are doing or talking about, just from the few posts you have put up, so stop changing your mind every time your theory gets dismissed and jumping on the bandwagon of what I have suggested and trying to force someone to follow your BS advice.

Sent from my F3311 using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

Some people probably have this issue caused by a faulty component,
And some by software.
A faulty NEC Tokin capacitor can indeed cause this issue.
There are a lot of variables and possible causes to such issue.
 
Vishera said:
Some people probably have this issue caused by a faulty component,
And some by software.
A faulty NEC Tokin capacitor can indeed cause this issue.
There are a lot of variables and possible causes to such issue.
Click to expand...
Faulty electrical components would cause issues with other things aswell not just a few certain games and unfortunately these oldest models are the most faulty and likely to fail.

As I have mentioned I have had this issue and it is a slim model PS3 2003A in the which these productions errors were corrected and the console was adequately made more reliable. And have never had this issue with the same games on my super slim on OFW. So again a RAM issue as the various Homebrew and plugins can conflict with each other cause unnecessary drainage in the theme RAM.

This is why mention a RAM issue as this was what there issue was for me. And is one of the simplest things to sort out. And if it doesn't work then we can consider more serious issues.





Sent from my F3311 using Tapatalk
 
Cypher_CG89 said:
Same here, REBUG 4.82.2 D-REX. I Basically reinstall the firmware to clear everything I had installed that modified the flash in any way or actively interfered with any of consoles memory. before I did this I removed every Homebrew on the console then after I only reinstalled the firmware ander the basics of what I use, webMAN, multiman, PSN Patch, CCAPI.

After this I have never had these issue. what sort of things do you have installed, bootplugins, prxs and such? also anything that changes the flash memory? using System information in MultiMan should show gameOS memory. Mine shows just under 60MB available. Where as webMAN shows 4.2MB of systemOS available.

The power packs on them older models were quite prone to be faulty. It would also explain a sudden shutdown. but again I still would have thought it would present itself in alot more things other than just a few games.

Power distribution is something I haven't fully looked into onthe PS3 but should operate on the same principles as other computer devices. The more demanding game the more power is drawn but still there are alot of games that are demanding on power but not the memory, not just these few that seem to be linked, so again you would probably expect the issue to present its self in other situations.

This has give me another brain wave. How are you playing these games that shutdown the PS3? Disc? or backups from the HDD?

Yes the firmware can have issues, especially REBUG, it has issues installing over its self. for example updating from one version to another. Sometimes installing another cfw then back to rebug can sort this issue. This is why I suggested re-installing the firmware first, then would suggest installing another of the same version then back to REBUG.

We will get to the bottom of the the issue, it's just going to take a bit of trial and error to sort.
Click to expand...

Yes! I did actually update my CFW from Rebug 4.81 to 4.82. This was so I could access PSN and download my purchased games to the system. Come to think of it, I cant remember these shutdowns occuring before I did that. I also had issues with webman not working, and can recall redownloading a webman updater and toolbox updater. Who knows, i may have confused the memory with one of my installs. What i ideally want to do is simply revert back to an OFW to be able to test this game on a unit which has absolute no modifications at all and see if the issue persists, but im scared that i'll overheat my unit without the fan control utility. Thanks to webman, i'm able to maintain temps of under 65 at all times, no matter the stress to the console. Seeing that this unit is a launch JP model, I dont want to play around with temperatures too much incase it may be on its last legs. Running this unit without FC setup is just a death sentence IMO.

I am playing these games all of discs. To be honest, the only reason I installed CFW to begin with is to play mult-region PS1/PS2 titles right off the disc. I am a PAL user with PAL discs, using an NTSC system, and my whole goal was to have one console, to run PS1/2/3 titles right off the disc, as my EURO 60gb used to do before it failed. Now with CFW, i'm able to achieve this, with the exception of Tekken tag 2, ironically a game that i (used) to use the system for the most.+

What would you do if you were in my shoes? What would you try first knowing my situation I am in? Again, i am grateful for all the help you and everyone else are giving to me.
 
I would try the simplest things first. All my games are backups on the HDD of my discs as I take pride in my collection and want to keep them in as good condition as possible lol.

I only asked this as it may have pointed towards an electrical element (eg. possibly the BD drive) but we should try simple things first to correct the issue before moving on to more serious and complicated matters.

If your worried about overheating then reverting back to OFW with no fan control would not be a good idea at the minute. Out of curiosity what temps does your console hit without the fan control? And have you replaced the thermal paste recently to better help overheating issues and help extend your consoles lifespan.

I have a super slim on OFW, aswell as my slim on CFW, that I have had for 6 years from brand new and started to get ridiculously hot, even when doing nothing but sitting on the XMB, I replaced the thermal paste last week and cleaned all the dust out of it and it has never been that hot since.

I am not keen on webMANs dynamic fan control, I find it is a bit erratic in the way it increases and decreases the fan speed. I personally use temMON although you have to set it everytime you boot up the system unlike webMAN.

I also have had issues with webMAN not installing correctly this why I use MultiMAN, much more stable.

I would try re-installing REBUG and remove all Homebrew from the console before you do. Basically start over from scratch. remove all prx plugins and edit the Boot.txt and prx_plugin. txt so only webman is started at boot.

Also make sure that you backup all your save data and stuff onto USB or an external drive before starting any of this.

Once installed only install the minimum of what you need then see if it happens here. Make sure REBUG mode and COBRA mode are enabled. Obviously you need COBRA for webMAN lol. and double check the boot and prx_plugin files are still the way you edited them to minimise any use of RAM. Also in webMAN setup make sure it is set to use the minimum amount of memory.

Also you could make a backup of the game (multiman would be best for this) that most causes the issues to see if this happens with the backup. (I believe you said this was tekken tag 2, the last tekken I played was tekken 2) This was will take the BD drive out of equation.

I assume your console is CEX? if it is you could use a tick others have used to get around the problem of REBUG not installing correctly over itself by installing another CEX firmware then reinstall REBUG. for example installing FERROX 4.82 CEX then reinstall REBUG REX.

I see alot of people upgrading REBUG to access PSN. I didn't upgrade REBUG till 4.82.2 D-REX was released and I upgraded from 4.80.2 D-REX and I never lost access to PSN for 2 years on 4.80.2 even though I was several firmware versions out of date.

So actual order I would (personally) try the above in if I was to have the same issue as you would be:

1. Create a backup of a game that triggers the shut down and try running this(Tekken Tag 2 in your case). Quick and simple. (If it doesn't work keep the backup on your HDD for later testing)

2. Failing this I would do a simple firmware re-install without removing anything. Just make sure webMAN is reinstalled and REBUG and Cobra modes are enabled. Then try the Disc, if that doesn't work use the backup.

3. Failing again is where I would remove everything as stated above, reinstall REBUG and only install the bare minimum needed. (boot and prx_plugin txt only show webMAN loaded) And again try both disc and backup.

4. Then if the above didn't work install another CFW, ferrox 4.82 cex then reinstall REBUG REX. and again only they have minimal Homebrew required. (again making sure the boot and prx_plugin txt only show webMAN being loaded)
And again try both the backup and disc.

Also in each of these steps you could try other games that trigger the shut down. Also try switching between REBUG and Normal modes in each of the steps. WebMAN uses cobra so you will need this enabled for your fan control. or install an independent fan control like tempmon and take webMAN out of the equation all together useless you need its other features for playing you games. Basically test every aspect you can. and make sure everytime you reinstall webMAN it is set to minimum memory usage.

If non of the above resolve the problem issue we can look at other things that might be causing issues.

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Cypher_CG89 said:
I would try the simplest things first. All my games are backups on the HDD of my discs as I take pride in my collection and want to keep them in as good condition as possible lol.

I only asked this as it may have pointed towards an electrical element (eg. possibly the BD drive) but we should try simple things first to correct the issue before moving on to more serious and complicated matters.

If your worried about overheating then reverting back to OFW with no fan control would not be a good idea at the minute. Out of curiosity what temps does your console hit without the fan control? And have you replaced the thermal paste recently to better help overheating issues and help extend your consoles lifespan.

I have a super slim on OFW, aswell as my slim on CFW, that I have had for 6 years from brand new and started to get ridiculously hot, even when doing nothing but sitting on the XMB, I replaced the thermal paste last week and cleaned all the dust out of it and it has never been that hot since.

I am not keen on webMANs dynamic fan control, I find it is a bit erratic in the way it increases and decreases the fan speed. I personally use temMON although you have to set it everytime you boot up the system unlike webMAN.

I also have had issues with webMAN not installing correctly this why I use MultiMAN, much more stable.

I would try re-installing REBUG and remove all Homebrew from the console before you do. Basically start over from scratch. remove all prx plugins and edit the Boot.txt and prx_plugin. txt so only webman is started at boot.

Also make sure that you backup all your save data and stuff onto USB or an external drive before starting any of this.

Once installed only install the minimum of what you need then see if it happens here. Make sure REBUG mode and COBRA mode are enabled. Obviously you need COBRA for webMAN lol. and double check the boot and prx_plugin files are still the way you edited them to minimise any use of RAM. Also in webMAN setup make sure it is set to use the minimum amount of memory.

Also you could make a backup of the game (multiman would be best for this) that most causes the issues to see if this happens with the backup. (I believe you said this was tekken tag 2, the last tekken I played was tekken 2) This was will take the BD drive out of equation.

I assume your console is CEX? if it is you could use a tick others have used to get around the problem of REBUG not installing correctly over itself by installing another CEX firmware then reinstall REBUG. for example installing FERROX 4.82 CEX then reinstall REBUG REX.

I see alot of people upgrading REBUG to access PSN. I didn't upgrade REBUG till 4.82.2 D-REX was released and I upgraded from 4.80.2 D-REX and I never lost access to PSN for 2 years on 4.80.2 even though I was several firmware versions out of date.

So actual order I would (personally) try the above in if I was to have the same issue as you would be:

1. Create a backup of a game that triggers the shut down and try running this(Tekken Tag 2 in your case). Quick and simple. (If it doesn't work keep the backup on your HDD for later testing)

2. Failing this I would do a simple firmware re-install without removing anything. Just make sure webMAN is reinstalled and REBUG and Cobra modes are enabled. Then try the Disc, if that doesn't work use the backup.

3. Failing again is where I would remove everything as stated above, reinstall REBUG and only install the bare minimum needed. (boot and prx_plugin txt only show webMAN loaded) And again try both disc and backup.

4. Then if the above didn't work install another CFW, ferrox 4.82 cex then reinstall REBUG REX. and again only they have minimal Homebrew required. (again making sure the boot and prx_plugin txt only show webMAN being loaded)
And again try both the backup and disc.

Also in each of these steps you could try other games that trigger the shut down. Also try switching between REBUG and Normal modes in each of the steps. WebMAN uses cobra so you will need this enabled for your fan control. or install an independent fan control like tempmon and take webMAN out of the equation all together useless you need its other features for playing you games. Basically test every aspect you can. and make sure everytime you reinstall webMAN it is set to minimum memory usage.

If non of the above resolve the problem issue we can look at other things that might be causing issues.

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Click to expand...

All launch models get bad temps without fan control.
With fan control at fixed 29% i get maximum CELL-70c RSX-64c
Without fan control it reaches 80c...

Important note is that the ftp and http servers of WebMan utilize RAM during games,
I can access them during a gameplay from my PC.
You can disable the ftp server with MultiMan.
 
@Cyper GG89

Okay! Thats a long reply, so bare with me if my replies seem a little choppy. A lot to cover.

In case of a potential BD failure, I would lean away from this, as this is in the same category as the PSU. If there was an issue, it should do it with other games too, not just this one. I played Driver San Francisco yesterday for almost 2 hours and while the dynamic fan control kicked in multiple times, the temps did not go over 67 for CPU and 65 for RSX. Never the less, i will have tekken backed up to the HDD and see if the problem occurs again to rule this out. I'll try this step first actually, but i'm not optimistic.

In terms of my temperatures. As soon as i installed CFW, i had webman instantly configured to control my temperatures. The only time i ran the unit without fan control after CFW install was when i had a problem with webman after i updated my CFW to 4.82. As soon as i got webman working again, i noticed the cpu was about 71 and RSX was 69. This immediately scared me so after enabling webman again, i never really tested the unit without fan control, since as i said, this is a JP launch model and im too paranoid to even let the unit revert back to normal fan control in fear of having the unit go kaput.

I did open the unit up when i bought it and immediately replaced the thermal paste on both chips, but not at the level of actually removing the chip itself (heat spreader?, unsure what its called) The paste was understandably dry so i used the pea method and a dab of arctic silver right in the middle. I have not been game enough to replace the paste under the chip itself, which is why i run fan control all the time, in the hopes that this will help in conjunction with the paste that i replaced on the heatsink.

The only things i've installed on my unit are the CFW rebug, its update, webman and multiman. I dont have any other homebrew at all on the unit as my original intention was simply to be able to play PAL BC on my NTSC system so truth be told, i purposefully avoid dabbling with any other system or game modifications. Mods aren't really my thing :P

My console is CEX. I think i'll try installing ferrox and see if that changes anything with how the game plays. Now that i am JB, is it as simple as downloading the firmware and updating via XMB?

Also, how would i go about simply reinstalling the latest rebug? Simply download and again, update via XMB, or is there something else i'm missing.

Also a reply to your earlier post, i checked my memory in multiman, and it says i have 60040kb available, so i guess no obvious signs of problems with that.
 
Last edited:
Vishera said:
All launch models get bad temps without fan control.
With fan control at fixed 29% i get maximum CELL-70c RSX-64c
Without fan control it reaches 80c...

Important note is that the ftp and http servers of WebMan utilize RAM during games,
I can access them during a gameplay from my PC.
You can disable the ftp server with MultiMan.
Click to expand...
Hmm. This would mean fan control wouldnt work for the duration that multiman is disabled, correct?

Really tempted to do this, and try the game to see if there is any crashes...

Maybe i can point a huge fan at my PS3 in the mean time, lol
 
SeanRanklin said:
Hmm. This would mean fan control wouldnt work for the duration that multiman is disabled, correct?

Really tempted to do this, and try the game to see if there is any crashes...

Maybe i can point a huge fan at my PS3 in the mean time, lol
Click to expand...

IrisMan has it's own version of fan control,
Also you can disable the FTP server of WebMan,
Now that i think about it,When i used the PSXploit 2.0
It failed due to insufficient amount of RAM,I used some tricks to free some RAM like setting the homepage to blank,cleaning history and deleting cookies,It worked.
So launch models probably have an insufficient RAM issue.
 
Vishera said:
IrisMan has it's own version of fan control,
Also you can disable the FTP server of WebMan,
Now that i think about it,When i used the PSXploit 2.0
It failed due to insufficient amount of RAM,I used some tricks to free some RAM like setting the homepage to blank,cleaning history and deleting cookies,It worked.
So launch models probably have an insufficient RAM issue.
Click to expand...
But, when i disable FTP server, will my fan control stop working?
 
SeanRanklin said:
But, when i disable FTP server, will my fan control stop working?
Click to expand...
Nope,It will just disable the FTP server that gives access to the storage of the PS3 from your network,But the HTTP server will remain active and consume RAM during gameplay,still one server consumes less RAM than two.
 
Vishera said:
Nope,It will just disable the FTP server that gives access to the storage of the PS3 from your network,But the HTTP server will remain active and consume RAM during gameplay,still one server consumes less RAM than two.
Click to expand...
hmm, i guess that is true. Do you know how i can clear up all the ram from my system? What else can i disable? I'd like to try the game running on a system as close to OFW as possible regarding ram.

What if i disable my internet connection. that should free up the ram ?
 
SeanRanklin said:
hmm, i guess that is true. Do you know how i can clear up all the ram from my system? What else can i disable? I'd like to try the game running on a system as close to OFW as possible regarding ram.

What if i disable my internet connection. that should free up the ram ?
Click to expand...
As long as the PS3 doesn't downloads or uploads in the background it probably doesn't make a difference.
You can disable WebMan and use Irisman to load your games and configure fan control in it.
That way the HTTP server and the FTP servers both will be disabled and you will have fan control.
 
I'm currently installing the problematic game to the HDD via miltiman.

Will report results back once completed & tested.


UPDATE:

No Change. Console still turns off while running the game from multiman.
 
Last edited:
It's alot to do and extremely repetitive as your simply adding steps to each stage of testing but going in more depth each time.

Late replies as I am in the UK and it's like 4.45am lol. Don't really get much sleep at the moment because of certain things.

So multiman shows that you have approximately 60MB of RAM for operating games. Excellent, obviously this shows it when it's idle and not being used by a game. But this should be OK as normally this is about what multiman shows available for my PS3 SLIM 2003A.

All the backup is doing is taking the BD Drive out of the equation for testing so the PS3 draws less power, not that it is much of an increase to spinning the drive up. But this is also testing electrical conductivity by increasing demand when using the BD Drive.

The beauty of CFW is you can install the same version over and over again via the XMB System Update utility. Whereas OFW will only let you do it once this way. the other way on the OFW is enter safe mode. Also you can store the update on the HDD to install.

I personally have 3 different CFWs on the HDD REBUG D-REX(as my console is set to DEX for developing and Debugging) , FERROX and HABIB. The 3 main CFWs used as I need to be able to test the various Mod's an Homebrews I am working on on the the different versions for full compatibility across the firmwares.

You can either install using USB or store it on your HDD after downloading it if you need to redownload it.

If you want to test as close to OFW as possible. switch from REBUG mode to NORMAL. lvl2 kernel as CEX, target id as CEX xmb set to CEX QA. and cobra mode disabled. This is probably as close as possible to OFW you can get on REBUG CFW.

WebMAN uses RAM regardless of whether or not you are playing a game as it uses systemOS RAM to operate as it is embedded in the xml of the XMB and uses webbrowser functions to run. things like multiman use gameOS RAM as they are an application. Don't know how many more times I can have to explain that to this other person lol oh well.

So we're narrowing down certain causes. RAM appears to OK on first glance but we have no way of monitoring it in game. Well none that I have come across yet.

So next comes the firmware aspect.


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Cypher_CG89 said:
It's alot to do and extremely repetitive as your simply adding steps to each stage of testing but going in more depth each time.

Late replies as I am in the UK and it's like 4.45am lol. Don't really get much sleep at the moment because of certain things.

So multiman shows that you have approximately 60MB of RAM for operating games. Excellent, obviously this shows it when it's idle and not being used by a game. But this should be OK as normally this is about what multiman shows available for my PS3 SLIM 2003A.

All the backup is doing is taking the BD Drive out of the equation for testing so the PS3 draws less power, not that it is much of an increase to spinning the drive up. But this is also testing electrical conductivity by increasing demand when using the BD Drive.

The beauty of CFW is you can install the same version over and over again via the XMB System Update utility. Whereas OFW will only let you do it once this way. the other way on the OFW is enter safe mode. Also you can store the update on the HDD to install.

I personally have 3 different CFWs on the HDD REBUG D-REX(as my console is set to DEX for developing and Debugging) , FERROX and HABIB. The 3 main CFWs used as I need to be able to test the various Mod's an Homebrews I am working on on the the different versions for full compatibility across the firmwares.

You can either install using USB or store it on your HDD after downloading it if you need to redownload it.

If you want to test as close to OFW as possible. switch from REBUG mode to NORMAL. lvl2 kernel as CEX, target id as CEX xmb set to CEX QA. and cobra mode disabled. This is probably as close as possible to OFW you can get on REBUG CFW.

WebMAN uses RAM regardless of whether or not you are playing a game as it uses systemOS RAM to operate as it is embedded in the xml of the XMB and uses webbrowser functions to run. things like multiman use gameOS RAM as they are an application. Don't know how many more times I can have to explain that to this other person lol oh well.

So we're narrowing down certain causes. RAM appears to OK on first glance but we have no way of monitoring it in game. Well none that I have come across yet.

So next comes the firmware aspect.


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Click to expand...

To monitor RAM in-game (requires webman) simply press (in XMB,Doesn't matter if in-game or not) start+select for one time or hold it for a bit for it to display the live data all the time untill you hold start+select again.
 
Vishera said:
To monitor RAM in-game (requires webman) simply press (in XMB,Doesn't matter if in-game or not) start+select for one time or hold it for a bit for it to display the live data all the time untill you hold start+select again.
Click to expand...
this shows system OS RAM. How can he have a couple of MB in webMAN then all most 60MB in MultiMan? they show and monitor different allocations of RAM. (also webMAN can be highly inaccurate at times) If your system RAM is used up your PS3 will reboot into safe mode with the message 'system cannot operate correctly' instantly upon using it all, in game or xmb, watch a film or using apps. possibly a simple mod to the root path of webMAN s monitoring could be used to show the same allocation of RAM as multiman? might look into it as monitoring both allocations would be extremely useful.

Sent from my F3311 using Tapatalk
 
Cypher_CG89 said:
It's alot to do and extremely repetitive as your simply adding steps to each stage of testing but going in more depth each time.

Late replies as I am in the UK and it's like 4.45am lol. Don't really get much sleep at the moment because of certain things.

So multiman shows that you have approximately 60MB of RAM for operating games. Excellent, obviously this shows it when it's idle and not being used by a game. But this should be OK as normally this is about what multiman shows available for my PS3 SLIM 2003A.

All the backup is doing is taking the BD Drive out of the equation for testing so the PS3 draws less power, not that it is much of an increase to spinning the drive up. But this is also testing electrical conductivity by increasing demand when using the BD Drive.

The beauty of CFW is you can install the same version over and over again via the XMB System Update utility. Whereas OFW will only let you do it once this way. the other way on the OFW is enter safe mode. Also you can store the update on the HDD to install.

I personally have 3 different CFWs on the HDD REBUG D-REX(as my console is set to DEX for developing and Debugging) , FERROX and HABIB. The 3 main CFWs used as I need to be able to test the various Mod's an Homebrews I am working on on the the different versions for full compatibility across the firmwares.

You can either install using USB or store it on your HDD after downloading it if you need to redownload it.

If you want to test as close to OFW as possible. switch from REBUG mode to NORMAL. lvl2 kernel as CEX, target id as CEX xmb set to CEX QA. and cobra mode disabled. This is probably as close as possible to OFW you can get on REBUG CFW.

WebMAN uses RAM regardless of whether or not you are playing a game as it uses systemOS RAM to operate as it is embedded in the xml of the XMB and uses webbrowser functions to run. things like multiman use gameOS RAM as they are an application. Don't know how many more times I can have to explain that to this other person lol oh well.

So we're narrowing down certain causes. RAM appears to OK on first glance but we have no way of monitoring it in game. Well none that I have come across yet.

So next comes the firmware aspect.


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Click to expand...

No problem, i'm just glad you are helping me to begin with, lol.

I will try the above you mentioned in getting my CFW to operate as close to OFW as possible and test the game. It usually triggeres in the first 5 full fights i have. I am a bit worried about temporarily losing fan control, so maybe ill point an external fan at the unit for the duration of the test.

If the system crashes on this game again, i'll try rebug 4.81 install. I cant recall having problems with this CFW and i only updated to 4.82 to play online which i dont even care about any more. Do i simply just download my original CFW 4.81 and install via system update?

Should this fail too, i'll try and reverting back to oFW 3.55 and see what happens. If i still dont have any luck, i think its safe to say we can rule out any software problems at the very least.

Will revert back in due course.
 
yes just download REBUG 4.81 from there site. You should just be able to install like any other CFW. If you didn't have anyone problems with it then this is could point to the firmware not installed correctly when you updated to 4.82. A common problem when REBUG is installed over itself.

I wouldn't have thought using a fan utility would have much effect, so if you don't want to use webMAN you could use tempmon while everything is set as close to normal. The only thing about this is that you have to set it everytime you boot up your console. Don't think anything is really worth the risk of frying your console especially when them old ones are so temperamental.

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