Discussion about free software

maxmoon

Forum Noob
It goes against the FMCB license (line 75): https://github.com/TnA-Plastic/FreeMcBoot/blob/master/LICENSE.txt
Plus, there are a lots of limits in how big the resultant ELF can be and the uncompressed splashes makes it huge...
I got permission from jimmykaelkael to implement the new splashes.

I didn't even know FMCB isn't free (like in free speech). Better not waste time on this anymore...

How will be XEB+ released? Will it be free? It looks interesting and if it's free, I would like to contribute.
 
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Freeware doesn't mean open source. Can be and often is but not must be. FMCB 1.9xx only installer is open src, but not FMCB itself. "official FMCB" was open src up to and include 1.7, then stopped to be. Years later, someone leaked the scr of 1.8b and more years later Jimmikaelkael, main author, said it have no longer any against publishing it.
 
Free software is not always Open source.

And open source software is not always free. :)

It will be Free and Open.

Under which licence will it be published? GPLv3 or even 0BSD?

In which programming language(s) is it written? I am guessing C or C++.

Will you support i18n (or similar language systems) and do you still need people for German translations?
 
And open source software is not always free. :)
I think you're wrong in that statement. Please name an example...

Under which licence will it be published? GPLv3 or even 0BSD?
A part uses GPL-3.0 license and another parts uses a custom license.

In which programming language(s) is it written? I am guessing C or C++.
Bootloader: C
Neo Dashboard's Engine (an Enceladus fork): C++
Dashboard: Lua
Plugins and modules: It depends...

Will you support i18n (or similar language systems) and do you still need people for German translations?
It has his own way of handling languages.
And I already have a team of German translators (which are waiting for me to finish the new malarkey so they can translate it).
 
GRSecurity (Linux kernel hardening), bincrawl (data forensic tool for signature scanning blobs).
Seriously? Does those exists?! What's the point? People could remove the need for a license from the code and done. A donation button sounds like a way better idea?
 
I think you're wrong in that statement. Please name an example...

Wrong? This isn't something I made up or my opinion. This is a fact! Your reaction shows that you not know the difference between open source, free software (like in free speech) and free software (like in free beer). Here is a good definition of it.

There is even a whole organisation for this called the Free Software Foundation, which exists since the 1980s.

FMCB 1.8 is a good example for open source, but not free software. You are not allowed to change the splash screen and you are not allowed to sell it, hence it's not free at all, even if it's free to use (like free beer). And that's what you wrote in the current thread (PSX-Scene, a way to go back in time). How did you even miss, that it's open source but not free?

Another example is every code, which was published without any licence or any fitting free licence is not free. Only because you can access it, doesn't mean you are allowed to use it like you want. It's like you would walk into my garden, because I didn't put a fence around it.

A part uses GPL-3.0 license and another parts uses a custom license.

What will the custom part contain? I somehow predict this will be the part were the software will not be free anymore, because that's what custom licenses do in general.

Bootloader: C
Neo Dashboard's Engine (an Enceladus fork): C++
Dashboard: Lua
Plugins and modules: It depends...

This sounds really interesting. I've never heart of Neo Dashboard's Engine and if I look for it on the net, I can only find crypto and NFT stuff. But I found something about Enceladus. For those who are interested in it: In general it is an enhanced Lua environment for PlayStation 2.

It has his own way of handling languages.
And I already have a team of German translators (which are waiting for me to finish the new malarkey so they can translate it).

Cool, that you have enough German translators, but this might be a weird way to handle contributors, but asking for it the third time might be uncomfortable for both sites, because I only read between the lines, that contributors are not needed anymore.
 
FMCB 1.8 is a good example for open source, but not free software.
I think you mismatched the words...

You are not allowed to change the splash screen and you are not allowed to sell it, hence it's not free at all, even if it's free to use (like free beer).
It is free: You not pay for it.
It is open and you're free to edit it: You can even change the splash, but ONLY FOR PERSONAL USE. Just don't distribute it... (Yes, that's grey/gray area)
You're not free to change the splash because stores sold FMCB changing the splash and removing the "Get it free at" message. That's why that measure is in the license.

What will the custom part contain? I somehow predict this will be the part were the software will not be free anymore, because that's what custom licenses do in general.
Installer: Distribution limitations. No reuploads or repacks are allowed to be shared on third party websites (meaning that they should always link the download to XEB+'s website or it's mirror). That's made to avoid people making repacks which might cause issues.
A note will be added that if the hosting site and the mirror both goes down for more than a week, reuploads and repacks will be allowed in third party sites from that point onwards.
Dashboard: The credits of the original authors should not be removed from specific parts of the code.

But I found something about Enceladus. For those who are interested in it: In general it is an enhanced Lua environment for PlayStation 2.
Yup. That's it. And, thanks to Enceladus we have many cool features, like, for example, the very customizable theme format:
I'm serious, you can even code a game on it and play it while you're at the XEB+ dashboard:
And it is not just themes, but that's a talk for later...
 
I think you mismatched the words...
Why are you denial and keep impute me that I am wrong? The definition of free software might exists longer than you exist, it is a fact and I put sources in the last post. I am really trying to help, because if someone asks if it's free software and you say "Yes", but it isn't in many ways, it's just a wrong claim.

It is open and you're free to edit it: You can even change the splash, but ONLY FOR PERSONAL USE. Just don't distribute it... (Yes, that's grey/gray area)

That's not a gray area, it's per definition just not free software. It's not FOSS.

Installer: Distribution limitations. No reuploads or repacks are allowed to be shared on third party websites (meaning that they should always link the download to XEB+'s website or it's mirror). That's made to avoid people making repacks which might cause issues.
A note will be added that if the hosting site and the mirror both goes down for more than a week, reuploads and repacks will be allowed in third party sites from that point onwards.
Dashboard: The credits of the original authors should not be removed from specific parts of the code.

You are massively limiting it in many ways, which makes this software NOT free at all. Especially the sharing part is one of the most important rules of free software. If you don't want to read all the links I've posted earlier, please do me a favor and just read the article on Wikipedia about it. It is really short :)

Limitation != Freedom

btw.: It could be critical to add own licence text, because this could be against the GPL (which is a free software licence), especially if you build on software, which was published with a free software licence.
 
definition of free software
free means "without cost". free does not always mean open source or even legal to distribute to other people. freeware/shareware/open-source have become confused over the years, but the definition of free has not changed yet.

You are massively limiting it in many ways, which makes this software NOT free at all.
still free. does not matter what he limits (features or rights), it is still free if it is at no-cost.

It could be critical to add own licence text, because this could be against the GPL
via wikipedia:
"According to the GPL FAQ, anyone can make a new license using a modified version of the GPL as long as they use a different name for the license, do not mention "GNU", and remove the preamble..."

if the code is already under GPL, then of course the license can not be modified. if you use a modified GPL from the start, you can change any of text to restrict (or open up) end-user rights
 
free means "without cost". free does not always mean open source or even legal to distribute to other people. freeware/shareware/open-source have become confused over the years, but the definition of free has not changed yet.

Okay, I should stop this discussion, because I repeat myself and it's already way offtopic :D But please, read at least one of the articles I posted here. But a short repetition: "free means without cost" is just a bad mindset and this statement is even not true in terms of propositional logic. Only because you have the word free saved as "free as in free beer" in your mind, doesn't mean it's per definition free. And yes, the definition of free hasn't changed since the 1980s (like mentioned in this thread), only people make their own definitions out of it.

via wikipedia:
"According to the GPL FAQ, anyone can make a new license using a modified version of the GPL as long as they use a different name for the license, do not mention "GNU", and remove the preamble..."

if the code is already under GPL, then of course the license can not be modified. if you use a modified GPL from the start, you can change any of text to restrict (or open up) end-user rights

At this point we don't know if there is code already under GPL and he build up on that or if the GPL software is only something like a dependency (library). Atm it only sounds like he wants to use free software, extend it with his own, and restrict it (not make it free anymore). -> For those people who still have a problems with the term "free" (see it as free as in free speech not as free beer).
 
Why are you denial and keep impute me that I am wrong? The definition of free software might exists longer than you exist, it is a fact and I put sources in the last post. I am really trying to help, because if someone asks if it's free software and you say "Yes", but it isn't in many ways, it's just a wrong claim.
free means "without cost". free does not always mean open source or even legal to distribute to other people. freeware/shareware/open-source have become confused over the years, but the definition of free has not changed yet.
Well, sorry to both, but, as a linguist, I need to set some stuff clear here. Please, both read this carefully.
So, here's the definition of free: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/es-LA/dictionary/learner-english/free

free adjective (NO COST)
not costing any money:
a free sample of perfume
Entry is free for children under 12.
Children get into the museum free of charge.

free adjective (NOT A PRISONER)
not in prison or in a cage:
He opened the cage and set the birds free.

There are more definitions, but we will focus on these two only. Which is the one applied to the original definition of "Free Software"?
Well, in order to know which, we need to look at the translations to other languages. For example, Spanish and Portuguese:
Software libre / Software livre.
Hmm... "libre", as in "NOT A PRISONER". (For now own I will keep only with Spanish)
See... free as in "no cost" is "gratis" while free as in "not a prisoner" is "libre".
So, it seems that @maxmoon is correct in the original meaning, but focus on "original".
While the conception of the terminology was not prisoner software, due to popular usage, it has evolved.
This is normal in every language and in every concept. The language is made by the people and the meanings evolve over time, making the most common usage at the time, the correct one. I'm doing something "based", but you'll see where I am going.
I will provide another Spanish example: Our word for "table" is "mesa", while in other languages is "taula" (ca), "table" (fr, en), "tavolo" (it), etc... Why don't we use "tabla"? Well, our "mesa" (sp) does not comes from "tabula" (Latin/la, means "table"), instead it comes from "mensa" (la, means "measure"). So, why did we got it from there? Well, that word (mensa) which was the "measure" of the food they offered to Gods, evolved to "plato" (which at the time had the same meaning as "mensa", but later evolved to "dish"), then, afterwards, "mensa" and "plato" (Informal Latin and Latin respectively) both evolved it's meaning to "rationed food", then "mensa" evolved to "table where the food is served" (mesa en la que se sirve la comida) and then evolved to just a normal table, a "mesa". The fun fact and punchline is that while the word "mensa" (measure) evolves to "mesa" (table), Informal Latin (then Spanish) speakers also used "tabula" (la, table) and his evolution, tabla (sp, table), but, over time, mesa (table) beat tabla (tabla) and became the definitive winner, all thanks to how people used them. "Tabla" (sp, table) then evolved to "tabla" (sp, a piece of wood in a plain shape, like the top of a table) and stays to only that nowadays.
So, in the same way that evolved over time that "tabla" (table) became just "a piece of wood", "free software" has deviated from the original "software libre" (as in not a prisoner) and now it is "software gratis" (as in free of charge).
Language evolves, deal with it. The original meaning is now lost and only used by a selected few, just as tabla is not a mesa anymore in Spanish. Like it or not, that's how languages work.

Especially the sharing part is one of the most important rules of free software.
You're free to share it anywhere in the internet, but the download link must always be the one in XEB+'s website, not your own reupload to MEGA or a fishy repack. This measure is taken to avoid problems to noob users. Many YouTubers or users at forums tend to upload custom repacks of software which sometimes does not behaves as they should due to modifications being made to them. This is for safety. And, as I said before: that limitation only applies to the "installer". You're free to compile the "dashboard", modify it (except for changing the author's credits) and upload your own dashboard's fork anywhere and instruct users on how to replace the original one with yours. Also, you can make your own installer from scratch, but the, users will notice the big difference. See? Not that limited, right?
What we want to avoid is confusions in noob users while we don't limit pro users. I think my approach on the licensing fits properly that.

btw.: It could be critical to add own licence text, because this could be against the GPL (which is a free software licence), especially if you build on software, which was published with a free software licence.
Don't worry, I got that part already covered up, legally speaking. The license is for the installer's code and binary themselves, while the other components of the installer (IRX modules and so on) are loaded from external files, not bundled in the binary which breaks no other license at all. The installer's code is made from scratch, so it does not responds to other pre-existing software license.

So... Bazinga! :cool:
 
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Well, sorry to both, but, as a linguist, I need to set some stuff clear here. Please, both read this carefully.
So, here's the definition of free: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/es-LA/dictionary/learner-english/free

free adjective (NO COST)
not costing any money:
a free sample of perfume
Entry is free for children under 12.
Children get into the museum free of charge.

free adjective (NOT A PRISONER)
not in prison or in a cage:
He opened the cage and set the birds free.

There are more definitions, but we will focus on these two only. Which is the one applied to the original definition of "Free Software"?
Well, in order to know which, we need to look at the translations to other languages. For example, Spanish and Portuguese:
Software libre / Software livre.
Hmm... "libre", as in "NOT A PRISONER". (For now own I will keep only with Spanish)
See... free as in "no cost" is "gratis" while free as in "not a prisoner" is "libre".
So, it seems that @maxmoon is correct in the original meaning, but focus on "original".
While the conception of the terminology was not prisoner software, due to popular usage, it has evolved.
This is normal in every language and in every concept. The language is made by the people and the meanings evolve over time, making the most common usage at the time, the correct one. I'm doing something "based", but you'll see where I am going.
I will provide another Spanish example: Our word for "table" is "mesa", while in other languages is "taula" (ca), "table" (fr, en), "tavolo" (it), etc... Why don't we use "tabla"? Well, our "mesa" (sp) does not comes from "tabula" (Latin/la, means "table"), instead it comes from "mensa" (la, means "measure"). So, why did we got it from there? Well, that word (mensa) which was the "measure" of the food they offered to Gods, evolved to "plato" (which at the time had the same meaning as "mensa", but later evolved to "dish"), then, afterwards, "mensa" and "plato" (Informal Latin and Latin respectively) both evolved it's meaning to "rationed food", then "mensa" evolved to "table where the food is served" (mesa en la que se sirve la comida) and then evolved to just a normal table, a "mesa". The fun fact and punchline is that while the word "mensa" (measure) evolves to "mesa" (table), Informal Latin (then Spanish) speakers also used "tabula" (la, table) and his evolution, tabla (sp, table), but, over time, mesa (table) beat tabla (tabla) and became the definitive winner, all thanks to how people used them. "Tabla" (sp, table) then evolved to "tabla" (sp, a piece of wood in a plain shape, like the top of a table) and stays to only that nowadays.
So, in the same way that evolved over time that "tabla" (table) became just "a piece of wood", "free software" has deviated from the original "software libre" (as in not a prisoner) and now it is "software gratis" (as in free of charge).
Language evolves, deal with it. The original meaning is now lost and only used by a selected few, just as tabla is not a mesa anymore in Spanish. Like it or not, that's how languages work.


You're free to share it anywhere in the internet, but the download link must always be the one in XEB+'s website, not your own reupload to MEGA or a fishy repack. This measure is taken to avoid problems to noob users. Many YouTubers or users at forums tend to upload custom repacks of software which sometimes does not behaves as they should due to modifications being made to them. This is for safety. And, as I said before: that limitation only applies to the "installer". You're free to compile the "dashboard", modify it (except for changing the author's credits) and upload your own dashboard's fork anywhere and instruct users on how to replace the original one with yours. Also, you can make your own installer from scratch, but the, users will notice the big difference. See? Not that limited, right?
What we want to avoid is confusions in noob users while we don't limit pro users. I think my approach on the licensing fits properly that.


Don't worry, I got that part already covered up, legally speaking. The license is for the installer's code and binary themselves, while the other components of the installer (IRX modules and so on) are loaded from external files, not bundled in the binary which breaks no other license at all. The installer's code is made from scratch, so it does not responds to other pre-existing software license.

So... Bazinga! :cool:

The funny thing is, that I am trying to tell you that there is a difference between free as in free beer and in free as in free speech (giving you even sources) and now you post exactly the same thing but instead you use "free cost and not in prison". So in general you didn't even read my posts or just didn't understand. And the confusing part is, you are a linguist, know the differences, but keep doing it wrong. Not really a good linguist, if you know that there are several definitions of a word, but use it to confuse people and let it complete open, which definition fits. This is just a huge prank from a linguist.

But the question stays the same, even if some words are different: Why do you put your software in prison and not let it free?

P.S.: As a linguist you might want to know that both are correct: licence and license. One is American English and one is British English. Just letting you know to destroy your bad try to provoke.

Bazinga yourself :tongue new:

But we should stop ranting about the definition of free and should use the time to create free software *cough* *cough* :chuncky:
 
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The funny thing is, that I am trying to tell you that there is a difference between free as in free beer and in free as in free speech (giving you even sources) and now you post exactly the same thing but instead you use "free cost and not in prison".
The thing is you don't understand the very language you speech.
If you're not in prison, you have freedom.
If you have free speech, you have freedom of speech.
The interpretation is freedom, but you failed to get that.

Why do you put your software in prison and not let it free?
The only software license with total freedom is WTFPL. Every other license has limitations (hence, not giving full freedom to the software). So, as in your so-called "as in free speech" software, only the ones under the WTFPL license fits your concept. Everything else, has at least one limitation. Get the point? The bare existence of a license (with the exception of the one I mentioned) takes away the software's freedom. So, yes, I'm just making a license that like almost every other license out there, keeps the software in a limited prison with some freedom permissions.

P.S.: As a linguist you might want to know that both are correct: licence and license. One is American English and one is British English. Just letting you know to destroy your bad try to provoke.
And you fell directly into the trap... I knew you where going to say that, but guess what, you said everything else in that post using American English with the exception of that word, so I decided to point that out. You do remember this, right?:
That's not a gray area
 
The thing is you don't understand the very language you speech.
If you're not in prison, you have freedom.
If you have free speech, you have freedom of speech.
The interpretation is freedom, but you failed to get that.


The only software license with total freedom is WTFPL. Every other license has limitations (hence, not giving full freedom to the software). So, as in your so-called "as in free speech" software, only the ones under the WTFPL license fits your concept. Everything else, has at least one limitation. Get the point? The bare existence of a license (with the exception of the one I mentioned) takes away the software's freedom. So, yes, I'm just making a license that like almost every other license out there, keeps the software in a limited prison with some freedom permissions.


And you fell directly into the trap... I knew you where going to say that, but guess what, you said everything else in that post using American English with the exception of that word, so I decided to point that out. You do remember this, right?:

Okay, now you claim so much nonsense, that I don't even want to correct you, because it will just waste time, because it will lead to more nonsense and crazy theories (like already evidenced) and it mutated to a childish behavior. The time is better invested in creating free software (and by free, I really mean it).

I just let you believe in whatever you believe.
 
I just let you believe in whatever you believe.
OK, but...

Okay, now you claim so much nonsense
The fact is that I provided you a proper interpretation some posts above ( https://www.psx-place.com/threads/psx-scene-a-way-to-go-back-in-time.20476/page-3#post-345622 ) while you failed to understand that the language evolves with time and so does the definitions and, also, you failed to understand what does a prisoner does not has (he lacks of freedom).

Also, you failed to comprehend that every license (with the exception of one) exists for a reason and it is to put limits to the free software's freedom: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_free_and_open-source_software_licenses
So, you want real free(dom for the) software? Use this license: WTFPL ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTFPL )

The time is better invested in creating free software (and by free, I really mean it).
Please, point which is the correct definition of "free" in that sentence. Only official Cambridge definitions will be acepted as valid responses: https://dictionary.cambridge.org/es-LA/dictionary/learner-english/free
Thanks in advance!
 
I will not discuss this with you anymore, because it's a waste of time (going in circles). If people don't accept facts and want to live in their bubble, just let them. That's what I've learned from the pandemic. No one can help denial people and with every post of you it gets worse and worse.

But a warning to others! Don't believe in false information on the internet. WTFPL is NOT the only free licence for software. And it wouldn't make even sense, because the world would look completely different if this would have been the only free software licence. A lot of stuff wouldn't exist without free software, like many products from Apple, Microsoft and Google, because they make money out of free software and that's only possible, because free software isn't restrictive in fields like making money out of it.

Only because you don't want to read sources or don't want to believe in them, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Inform yourself about the Free Software Foundation and their work since the 1980s. They had to fight a lot with people, who don't understand what free software means.

EDIT: XEB+ will not be free software and that's all I wanted to know, because I will not contribute to non-free software (even if I will watch this project and maybe test it).
 
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EDIT: XEB+ will not be free software and that's all I wanted to know, because I will not contribute to non-free software (even if I will watch this project and maybe test it).
I think you're confusion XEB+'s installer with the whole XEB+ project, but, as you wish...

If people don't accept facts and want to live in their bubble, just let them.
Yeah, I will apply that...

Don't believe in false information on the internet. WTFPL is NOT the only free licence for software.
True, but it is the only one which gives total freedom.
Every other license has some kind of limitations or restrictions. Prove me wrong.
 
I think you're confusion XEB+'s installer with the whole XEB+ project, but, as you wish...

Why is it so hard to get explicit information from you? I might repeat the question and put some detailed information, just to not confuse you.

Will the XEB+ project and the XEB+ installer be free software by the definition of the Free Software Foundation?

Dude, I really don't want to fight with you anymore, because proving someone wrong all the time is really useless. I like you and I want that we stop wasting our time and use the time to do useful stuff, like programming :)
 
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