PS3 (Research/Experimental) - NEC/TOKIN Capacitors Replacement - YLOD

jmmattison said:
Definitely not overheating, also not a power supply issue. I put a working psu and still have same symptoms. Red standby light on, press power, get beep, green light for 2 to 3 sec, green changes to red, followed by 3 beeps then flashing red.

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Upload a video of that and pics of your work, is the best way to help others too. I would replace only 2 NECs per processor, if that doesn't change anything, then bgas could be the issue.
 
ElGris said:
Indeed, I believe the same, but I was referring to the exact moment where we should have a normal feeding from the NECs to processors, like it happens with a normal boot. From that moment when everything is ok and NECs are in charge of the boot, we have the last fault of the chain, and the nature of that fault depends of the caps state. I'm not too sure, but I think I read people saying they had even longest YLODs, and that is what I'm talking about. And having our data here, let's put you as an example, you had a L that suddenly died, and you manage to revive it by adding just one tantalum. That YLOD was 5 seconds right? Well, that could be a rule, but IMO we need to see SYSCON to discard any NEC fault, 'cause NECs are tricky, and I believe time could be +-5 seconds, not always just a specific number.


I'm beggining "to believe" lol. Actually that could be a good story to tell, and I'd like it is that real, but only real deployment on the battefield (pcb) against those evil bgas will show us the answer. Sadly.

And it is like you said, the fastest YLODs in my video are those without NECs on, at least, one processor. I guess the rest of the time the PS3 is taking to show a common YLOD is because is doing what you people see with the SYSCON method. And while that, different signals are going through every bga on CELL/RSX, a few by step read, so that explains the different times we get with different consoles.

P/S: I just bought my second dead B. I'm happy and scare at the same time lol.
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Yes, you are right. When I say 5+ seconds, this is just a simple hypothetical rule of thumb for me. A simple way of isolating this particular type of YLOD, in an attempt not to mix this with other errors that we know can happen at around 4 seconds too. Hell, even yesterday squeept had one. A weird one at that.
Notice also how I'm talking about the "type of YLOD".
The hypothesis is that this is an easy tell for capacitors. But I would suppose also that capacitors could also cause other kinds of problems. Maybe short YLODs as well. But that wouldn't be so easy to diagnose because it overlaps with all the other possible problems.
And remember I'd say we are still in the conjecture phase regarding this matter.
What we are doing reminds me a bit of those who smell people's farts and they can guess what sickness it is. Hehehe

Talking about my particular L case, well I indeed sometimes I thinkthe YLOD was even longer. Like 6 second or close to 7 too. But sadly as far as I understand, L models with VER board do not support syscon diagnosis. Would be great to validate that.

I just came across a Slim 2000 btw, with a ~1s YLOD (warranty sticker intact). Initial guess tells me it could be anything, though PSU should be fine because fan test works
 
@squeept When you get a chance could you upload a picture (oscilloscope measument of the waveform - Regular and Hires data acquisition modes) of the CELL TOKIN from CECHA01, SN:CE129944469? That's the one that got heat gunned to death. You said the noise is 500mV PP, but haven't taken a picture of this kind of noise using the improved probing technique. I'd like to see it. Also, when your're sure the board is scrap would you mind removing them intact? It would be good to have a known bad tokin for testing purposes. I'm thinking a parasitic bad tokin you can wire into a working console to test the theory you had about one bad apple spoiling the bunch, among other useful ideas we may have later.
 
I can dig for it tonight. I don't know if any of them were actually bad, I think everything on that board just got borked reaaaaaal hard. They still didn't show the "bad" waveform, they were just really fuzzy.
 
Hmm...well, if it got gunned that hard maybe it killed a tokin. After removing them, and assuming you have a function generator, you could try feeding it a +1.0v signal with 500mV PP sine wave @100mHz (the sweet spot in its frequency response curve) in parallel. If it doesn't filter that to +1.0 (+/-)50mV PP, then you know it's bad. It's a synthetic load, but would remove any weird board problems from the equation.
 
So, anyone here from U.S. that does repairs/attempted ones? Im an old member of psx-scene and haven't been around in a long time. Since my PHAT PS3 YLOD on me. Recently started looking at the modding community again and came across this thread. I'm a noob when it comes to electronic repair, soldering, etc. so I never attempted anything with my PHAT PS3, just left it alone. I'm here asking if any of you more electronically inclined would be willing to fix/attempt to fix and how much you charge for it. I couldn't figure out how to DM but according to @RIP-Felix, the guy to go to is @squeept.

Any information will be appreciated, thanks in advance.
 
@Aezaeo I can't reccomend repair shop, as I haven't used any. However, you might be better off buying a used working PS3. For comparison, I originally bought a backwards compatible A model (60GB) from GameStop (certified premium refurbished) about 10 years back for $250. I've seen a few deals between $100-200 on e-bay (assuming they're legit). It's a decade later and BC Phats have been dropping like flies (becoming rarer). I'd say prices are surprisingly reasonable. That's why I recommend getting a couple now, before the prices skyrocket. What did they cost new, $600? Well buy 3 and you're set for awhile. What did they last, about 15 years? Maybe 20+ if you delid CPU/RSX and apply new TIC every 5yrs to prevent overheating. That should get you into old age. Maybe by then PS3 emulation will be far enough along you won't care when the last one YLOD's.
 
@RIP-Felix Thanks for the information. I recently started browsing ebay so we'll see. I do have some local shops that claim that they can fix YLOD but i feel like they might not be as well informed as the electrical guys here in regards to the YLOD matter. Either way thanks for the response, much appreciated.
 
@RIP-Felix I looked again and the one that wasn't at double the regular voltage seemed normal. Maybe my little hacked probe on a stick needs a little tweaking. I definitely caused the failure of a set one time when I left a board in the drying oven for a month because I'm lazy and forgetful. I can throw a handful in there to bake any time I'm drying stuff and check on them in a month or three if I don't find a naturally dead set again soon.

@Aezaeo I do not usually offer repair services for the PS3 since so many of them are not able to be repaired. It leads to a lot of angry customers and strange accusations. I'm happy to take trade-ins towards one of my finished consoles on eBay. I'll have another CECHA01 with a one year warranty listed tomorrow at $479.99 plus shipping, but there are currently a few people waiting to snipe them as soon as I list. I only ship inside the USA.

If you are comfortable with a non-refundable payment method off of eBay and pulling the motherboard to send by itself, I can do some pretty cheap work with NO WARRANTY since it will not be stress tested "in situ" after repair. You would have to be okay with a good chance that you're throwing your money straight down the drain, too. DM if interested.
 
@squeept Funnily enough, I came across one you have listed now. And I am interested and would like to exchange some information via DM but Im not seein any option to DM you, maybe cuz I had to make a new account to the newer site, so im a new member again?
 
Aezaeo said:
@squeept Funnily enough, I came across one you have listed now. And I am interested and would like to exchange some information via DM but Im not seein any option to DM you, maybe cuz I had to make a new account to the newer site, so im a new member again?
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First you must be logged in and then I think you need to reach the magic number ~15 posts before you can PM, use search, like a post, etc.
 
Hey new here! I'm wishing to do this replacement but I'm not entirely sure which capacitors to buy. Are any 470uf 6.3v (Phat) Tantalum capacitors enough? Found some cheap ones on ebay with 15 mΩ resistance rating. Is this an important specification?
 
Unrul3r said:
Hey new here! I'm wishing to do this replacement but I'm not entirely sure which capacitors to buy. Are any 470uf 6.3v (Phat) Tantalum capacitors enough? Found some cheap ones on ebay with 15 mΩ resistance rating. Is this an important specification?
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I strongly suggest you read the entire thread before attempting this. Also, your questions have been answered before. I have repeated this reply, at least 3 times in the last few months. Each time someone gets tired of reading and skips to posting their question, this thread becomes longer and the cycle perpetuates. Sigh...

You should know that you may be wasting your time, depending on what you hope to accomplish and the model of PS3 you have. First you need an oscilloscope to confirm you need to replace the NEC/TOKINs. The first few pages of this thread may have lead you to believe they go bad all the time, but it's not true. On backwards compatible models they test fine most of the time. They tend to be BGA failures requiring a reball, among other problems (like the HDMI encoder, or solder bumps under the die). A bad tokin is rare. On later models, there are anecdotal reports of success replacing the tokins. However, the oscilloscope images to prove it are not being produced. So the jury is still out on that.

To answer your actual question, you must match capacitance (4800uF) and ESR (0.375mOhms) with the Tokin array. You cannot just replace 1 and expect lasting results. The caps you mention would not be a good choice. You must replace all of them or none of them. Also, the best replacement for a NEC/TOKIN proadlizer is a NEC/TOKIN proadlizer. They are not easy to remove and replace. The heat needed to do so could cause BGA failures on an otherwise functioning GPU/CPU, requiring a reball to fix. The same is true of a tantalum array. Speaking of which, tantalum isn't ideal for this circuit. The PS3 was designed for the Proadlizers. However, they should work fine if care is taken to match capacitance and ESR (perhas not ideally, but sufficiently). I would suggest caution though. The down side of tantalum not being designed for the circuit could lead to wear and premature failure of the CPU/GPU. That may outweigh the perceived benefit of using them over replacement NEC/TOKINs. No one knows for sure.

Now, perhaps you just wanted a soldering project for the fun of soldering. Maybe you fix it maybe you don't. I hear that, but there are better projects for that kind of thing. May I suggest you try your hand at a SNES recap. The odds of repairing a SNES is much higher. The PS3 is a soul killer by comparison. The odds are basically zero if you don't have the proper tools and experiance. NO LIE!
 
RIP-Felix said:
I strongly suggest you read the entire thread before attempting this. Also, your questions have been answered before. I have repeated this reply, at least 3 times in the last few months. Each time someone gets tired of reading and skips to posting their question, this thread becomes longer and the cycle perpetuates. Sigh...

You should know that you may be wasting your time, depending on what you hope to accomplish and the model of PS3 you have. First you need an oscilloscope to confirm you need to replace the NEC/TOKINs. The first few pages of this thread may have lead you to believe they go bad all the time, but it's not true. On backwards compatible models they test fine most of the time. They tend to be BGA failures requiring a reball, among other problems (like the HDMI encoder, or solder bumps under the die). A bad tokin is rare. On later models, there are anecdotal reports of success replacing the tokins. However, the oscilloscope images to prove it are not being produced. So the jury is still out on that.

To answer your actual question, you must match capacitance (4800uF) and ESR (0.375mOhms) with the Tokin array. You cannot just replace 1 and expect lasting results. The caps you mention would not be a good choice. You must replace all of them or none of them. Also, the best replacement for a NEC/TOKIN proadlizer is a NEC/TOKIN proadlizer. They are not easy to remove and replace. The heat needed to do so could cause BGA failures on an otherwise functioning GPU/CPU, requiring a reball to fix. The same is true of a tantalum array. Speaking of which, tantalum isn't ideal for this circuit. The PS3 was designed for the Proadlizers. However, they should work fine if care is taken to match capacitance and ESR (perhas not ideally, but sufficiently). I would suggest caution though. The down side of tantalum not being designed for the circuit could lead to wear and premature failure of the CPU/GPU. That may outweigh the perceived benefit of using them over replacement NEC/TOKINs. No one knows for sure.

Now, perhaps you just wanted a soldering project for the fun of soldering. Maybe you fix it maybe you don't. I hear that, but there are better projects for that kind of thing. May I suggest you try your hand at a SNES recap. The odds of repairing a SNES is much higher. The PS3 is a soul killer by comparison. The odds are basically zero if you don't have the proper tools and experiance. NO LIE!
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Thank you for the detailed reply! Well, in the past, it had YLOD, I re-flowed and re-pasted and it worked for a short time. I'd rather try see if this might be the problem and fix it for as long as possible than stay with a non-functional PS3.

I recently took the PS3 out again and it worked for a few hours but now its freezing on XMB boot, led goes yellow, and then blinking red which from what I gather, is overheating. Now, I don't see many alternatives of fixing it myself besides this. I don't want to send it to any repair shop and pay premium for it. If you have any way I can diagnose it correctly and fix it, I'd appreciate if you could share it. Or any other cheap alternative.

As for the tools and experience, I do have the tools to repair but not an oscilloscope. I've soldered successfully a few times before. I've seen PS3 capacitor replacement videos and it is certainly something I can do successfully if indeed this is my PS3's problem. What I don't have is sufficient electronic knowledge and ability to diagnose the problem myself.
 
Alright, then a welcome is in order.

I'm going to assume that when you say you have the tools you mean you have a good temperature controlled soldering station and board preheater. And by experience you mean you understand how to use flux and hot air to get a properly wetted solder joint, even in areas with a thick ground plane that sink the heat away. Without these tools and experience your PS3 is doomed. I mean, it's probably doomed anyway, but you know what I mean...at least there's a small chance instead of zero %.

First let's rule out overheating:

  1. Does the fan begin quiet, then ramp up to a jet engine before the LED flash yellow. Then it turns off flashing red?
    If so, that's an overheating problem that can be solved by delidding the RSC and CPU and replacing the TIC. You'll need to make a special tool. Read this post for more information:
    RIP-Felix said:
    That explains your temperatures. The Themal compound on your CPU is exhaused, dried up, gone, dead...not working! This is causing your CPU to overheat, increasing the temperature differential on the BGA and die bumps, which will quicken a YLOD. YOU NEED TO DELID. Make a CPU delidding tool and it will be easy to get off:
    eGXWbUm.jpg

    pfWkQW9.png


    Here is a video of NSC doing it. Skip to 1:03:46 for the relevant bit. I don't like to use his method to remove the RSX, I prefer to heat it and remove the normal way. But to each their own.
    You need to grind, file, or sand the thickness down. The tip MUST be very thin. There is very little space for you to get the tool under the edge of the IHS. A razor blade is too thick. A painters knife is too thick. Also very important is that you sand the bottom edge to "blunt" it. This is the edge that will be in contact with the substrate and could dig into the solder mask and destroy traces. If it's blunt or rounded and you come in with a flat angle, you won't have to worry about the traces. The sharp edge will cut the silicone along the IHS and force the blunt edge up onto a cushion of silicone. With braced steady pressure, you can easily cut through the silicone and remove the IHS in under a minute. Making the tool is the hardest part.
    Click to expand...
  2. How long is the YLOD? After you touch the pwr pad, describe the behavior exactly. Does the green light comes on? How does the fan sound? Is is quiet, then revs up. Or is it full jet enginge without reving first. Or starts to rev, but doesn't get a chance to spin up before the YLOD. How long does the LED stay green before the Yellow light flashes? Describe fan behavior during this time. Does the LED flash yellow only once before turning off or multiple times? This behavior separates a YLOD from an overheat.
 
RIP-Felix said:
Alright, then a welcome is in order.

I'm going to assume that when you say you have the tools you mean you have a good temperature controlled soldering station and board preheater. And by experience you mean you understand how to use flux and hot air to get a properly wetted solder joint, even in areas with a thick ground plane that sink the heat away. Without these tools and experience your PS3 is doomed. I mean, it's probably doomed anyway, but you know what I mean...at least there's a small chance instead of zero %.

First let's rule out overheating:

  1. Does the fan begin quiet, then ramp up to a jet engine before the LED flash yellow. Then it turns off flashing red?
    If so, that's an overheating problem that can be solved by delidding the RSC and CPU and replacing the TIC. You'll need to make a special tool. Read this post for more information:
  2. How long is the YLOD? After you touch the pwr pad, describe the behavior exactly. Does the green light comes on? How does the fan sound? Is is quiet, then revs up. Or is it full jet enginge without reving first. Or starts to rev, but doesn't get a chance to spin up before the YLOD. How long does the LED stay green before the Yellow light flashes? Describe fan behavior during this time. Does the LED flash yellow only once before turning off or multiple times? This behavior separates a YLOD from an overheat.
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Thank you for the welcome and availability!

Got the station. No board pre-heater though I do have a heat gun. Lets say basic experience, I've replaced 5 or 6 components (capacitors, resistors, etc) which didn't require much knowledge and I also have a close relative who has a lot more experience than me who I confer with before doing electronic repairs just to make sure. As long as it is basic manual soldering, I think I can do simple soldering jobs like this. I just take a lot of time.

Here is what happens right now: I turn it on, green led for 2-3 seconds, turns yellow very briefly, beeps 3 times, and blinks red. If I let the console sit for a while, I can get to the XMB and idle for a minute before it goes yellow and blinks red. Comparatively to the video you link, the fan is a lot quieter but as soon as I press the power button, it revs up a bit (and stabilizes if it has time before the yellow led). No jet engine as in video. The led doesn't even blink yellow, it just turns into yellow from green. Green 2-3 secs, turns yellow (briefly), beeps 3x then blinks red continuously.
 
Thought you'd all appreciate an image I was able to capture after a frustrating afternoon. I don't have a BGA inspection prism because they are crazy expensive. I ordered some cheap prisms with the intent of grinding them down, but I found today that my Dremel glass cutting bits just aren't good enough. So, then I just smashed one to bits with a hammer and dug through the rubble until I found an appropriately sized shard.

I know this looks like nothing, but here is the ball from the outer corner towards the front of the system. The one that is always oxidized on the RSX pad after I lift the chip. This was incredibly difficult to capture using a broken shard of prism, but here is the crack formed right at the IMC layer as expected. If you're confused by what you're looking at, you should be, because that's a shard of prism sitting on top of the board next to the RSX and I had to focus on the ball surface, leaving everything else a blurry mess.

I'm browsing through an optical catalog right now to find some tiny ass prisms, looks like I'll be spending about 100 bucks for a 1mm chunk of glass. If that doesn't help me get better images, I may finally bite the bullet and get the inspection prism.

DcwlZKp.jpg
 
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Unrul3r said:
Here is what happens right now: I turn it on, green led for 2-3 seconds, turns yellow very briefly, beeps 3 times, and blinks red. If I let the console sit for a while, I can get to the XMB and idle for a minute before it goes yellow and blinks red. Comparatively to the video you link, the fan is a lot quieter but as soon as I press the power button, it revs up a bit (and stabilizes if it has time before the yellow led). No jet engine as in video. The led doesn't even blink yellow, it just turns into yellow from green. Green 2-3 secs, turns yellow (briefly), beeps 3x then blinks red continuously.
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Well then, my condolences. That's the dread YLOD!

A few more questions:
  1. Do you ever remember hearing the fan sound like a jet engine, like in the video? Or did the YLOD come out of left field with no warning symptoms of overheating? If it did, that could be a bad tokin, but more likely it's a BGA defect. The fact you can sometimes get it to stay on tells me that heat is warping the board enough to establish a mechanical re-connection of the solder balls, but it's unstable hence the random YLOD.
  2. What model of PS3 is it? CECHA01, B01, E01 & etc. It says under the barcode on the back of the console.
  3. Is the warranty seal intact? There should be a tamper evident sticker above the hard drive cover on the bottom of the console. It's partially covering a rubber foot that conceals the security screw you must remove to open the console. If so, don't remove it. If it's an early model, the chances are you need a reball. Breaking this seal will hurt your chances of getting it repaired. Most shops rescind guarantees if the console has been previously worked on.
A console is worth more on ebay if the warranty sticker is intact, even if it has a YLOD. You may want to consider selling it and putting the proceeds (~$60 typically) toward a used working console. For reference, today I bought what looks like a sealed A01 for $45 (YLOD) and another described as "used tested" for $163. I had to employ some tricky search terms to find them that cheap, and who knows what I'll actually receive, but if they're not as described I can get my money back.

If the seal is broken, it may be worth more to you to try and work on it for fun. Just realize the chances of a lasting fix are extreemly slim.
 
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