PS3 (Research/Experimental) - NEC/TOKIN Capacitors Replacement - YLOD

small update. After a few days I revisited my last failure to fix the ylod. I started with check resistivity between gnd and power rails for each chip. The cell side was showing a short (~0.25ohms). SO, I removed the little daughter cap boards I made from the chip side, still shorted, then I started removing and rechecking every individual cap on the other side until I found the culprit. Unfortunately it was almost the last one left to remove. SO, another lesson learned, check every cap for shorts and cap before using, even if using the expensive non-CHINA ones. Put it all back together, still ylod. I put a good multimeter across power and gnd just to see what if anything I was getting during attempted boot. Cell settles on 1.0903 VDC for a second before ylod kicks in. Rsx settles on 1.2926VDC before ylod...Isn't RSX reporting unusual high?
 
PlayStation 3 #2: Update
Yesterday I removed the rest of the NEC/TOKINs and installed 18x 270uF, 2.5v, 6mOhm ESR TaPol caps. Total capacitance = 4860uF matching SONY's specifications and the ESR is 0.333, which is better than the NEC/TOKIN array. I used 3x 20AWG solid core conductors for the + rail bridge this time (larger than PS3#1). While the soldering is a bit sloppy, it's electrically sound. The resistance after installation was 2.8 - 2.9 Ohms +/GND, indicating they are installed correctly without shorts. Pictures:
A9ORZpd.jpg
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Yi5qZRS.jpg
Vf09Y17.jpg
Result = YLOD, no change.

Discussion:
Originally I replaced only one NEC/TOKIN on the bottom side of the board (for both the CPU and RSX):
fgJGRtR.jpg
That worked great and was super stable during the first few days of testing. I was able to jailbreak the console and install webMAN mod to get fan control away from the SYSCON. I tested NBA Live 2010 for 1 hour. No problems. Then I download/installed all the updates to Gran Turismo 6 which took all night (it's a seriously HUGE DL). The console was on for about 18hrs strait. The next day I played GT6 for a few hours, temps were completly under control (<70C). I concluded that the console was fixed and shut it down.

Over the next few weeks I may have turned it on a couple of times, but it mostly sat unused. Then I picked up a PS2 title cheap from a local thrift shop. I thought, "I haven't tested a PS2 title yet." So I poped it in and within 2 minutes the console YLOD!

So that brings me this weekend. If the BGA was fine and the NEC/TOKINs were the problem, then replacing them should have fixed the PS3. But it didn't! The EE research I've done suggests that 4800uF is important for the best performance of the circuit SONY engineered (COK-001 motherboard). Theoretically, I should not need more capacitance. @squeept's oscilloscope measurements suggest this as well. Although his probing technique could have been better, they do show more noise above and below 4800uF. That seems to confirm the theory. So I highly doubt that adding more capacitance at this point would make a difference.

The only way forward for me now is to reflow/reball the RSX. This makes two consoles that have failed shortly after trying the "Tantalum Fix." While yes, I confirmed the tantalum "fix" temporarily made the YLOD disappear, so far in my experience it has not lasted more than a few power cycles. This may be discouraging news, but my piddly two experiences, @squeept's many experiences, and the evidence we've gathered so far is consistent with the YLOD being primarily a BGA problem. The idea that, "we have all been assuming the BGA was at fault, when all along the capacitors were the culprit" is a tantalizing narrative, but that doesn't make it true. As a scientist, I'm obligated to suspect it's a red herring.
I know that I'm not the most smartest here talking about numbers, but thats a BC, COK001, maybe? Why do you believe that running a PS2 game provoked a YLOD? (It's instant btw? Like a short?). An A/B will run a Ps2 game natively, while a C/E will do it only emulating the E.E part, so why the problem should be on the RSX part if it wasn't involved that much when the YLOD happened? I'd look for a short somewhere in the bd drive stage, or powering part. What do you think? Also, check every cap with a capcitance reader before soldering.
 
it's also worth checking your errors via syscon... At one point, I killed one of the vdc caps while probing around, that gave me a ylod and some error code. I fixed that, still had a ylod, but some other error code.

Different day, killed one of the fuses -- sure enough, ylod, but different error code this time. Replaced the fuse, back to original ylod/error code. My main point is, the error codes can really help point out issues, and the syscon thread already identified several codes along with recommend fixes for those. I believe the main one we're trying to confirm is the one for a bad gpu and/or bad solder joints.
 
Aside from the electrical characteristics, ESR is very important in this application because these high frequency circuits can cause the capacitor to generate a great deal of heat. If the ESR is too high, it will absolutely burn itself up. If you got your caps from a good source, and you got a low enough ESR, then I don't know. But, if you got them from AliExpress or a similar shop, it's highly likely that the specs are incorrect, either from poor quality control or outright intentional fraud.
They were bought at the local hardware store, but does not mean they are of good quality. I finally have my scope so I will try all kinds of measurements, once I have time.
 
Do both when you're in there. Be sure to watch videos on getting the RSX off. Please note, the thermal adhesive on the RSX is too hard at room temp. A hair drier for 30s or so will soften it and it'll come away with much less prying force. Replace with high quality TC, I like MX-4. Once done you won't need to do it again for many years, but if your console outlives the new TC (4-5 years for MX-4), it will be easy to re-apply since you wont have to delid ever again.

SONY should never have used Internal Heat Spreaders. They should have done like they are with the PS5 and gone strait heatsink to Die. Speaking of the PS5, I don't think the liquid metal is a good idea. Unless they've solved the problem of it "drying out", then it'll stop working within 1.5 - 2 years. I had this happen to my PC after using liquid metal. After about 1.5years the stuff was hard and not liquid.

About liquid metal. RANT WARNING:
I've read that it forms an alloy with copper, slowly soaking into and discoloring it. It doesn't destroy it like it it does Aluminum, but soaking into the metal slowly does present a problem. Unless it's saturated, or they use a special metal that doesn't form an alloy, it'll "dry" out. Also, all liquids evaporate well below their boiling point! Even metals. Mercury evaporates into the air at room temp, for example. So, even if they prevent it from forming any alloy it'll still slowly evaporate. At least it's easy to replace, or so they made it seem in the tear down.
Yasuhiro Ootori didn't really address this except to say that the 'decision was necessary cool the APU, given it's high thermal density' and that they spent "over 2 years adotping this liquid metal cooling mechanism". He did use marketing buzz words like "long-term, stable, high cooling performance." However, unless they tested the APU with liquid metal for 2 years under load, which they couldn't do because the technology hasn't existed that long, alpha/beta hardware design changes in the manufacturing process prevent you from having finalized hardware for long term testing, and other logistical constraints. In short, they don't know for sure! These claims are always based on simulations, computer and real world test benches. An accelerated quality assurance load wouldn't work, as time is an inextricable factor in the evaporation rate of Liquid metal. So, there's no way they can properly simulate this. Only time will tell. Just like the PS3 and PS4.

What really has me worried is that the temperature density of the APU "required" them to use liquid metal! That means that this thing will place a serious stress on the FCBGA and bumps of the SoC. If and when the TIC becomes less effective, or the heatsink gets clogged with dust, BGA defects can occur even quicker than they did for PS3/PS4. FCBGA is just bad technology and needs to be abandoned! Hot chips in video game consoles is inherently going to limit their lifespan. Unless console manufacturers maintain backwards compatibility or forward port their game libraries, the modern era of gaming is doomed to never become retro. That's because the consoles that can play these games will not last long enough for the games to become retro. Unless new hardware is made to play theses games, or emulation can keep up then all the hardware capable of playing these games will be e-waste.

No problem, you say? "The games can be downloaded! So when the PS6 come out, you can just DL your PS5 games." You're assuming the PS6 will be backwards compatible, that SONY doesn't de-list your games, and that there will even be a PS6 at all. Maybe they go all subscription, like Valve. Playstation Plus and XBOX Game Pass is all you need on whatever device you have that's fast enough to work. SONY and Microsoft will be out of the hardware business and in the subscription business. Then you games rely on you paying in perpetuity to play. You own nothing, just how they like it. That's the future of gaming!

Meanwhile NINTENDO is sitting back with it's cool running low TDP consoles that don't generally have overheating problems; they're laughing all the way to the bank while MS and SONY beat each other to death and loose consumer confidence in their overpriced hardware. "If I want PC gaming performance, I'd upgrade my PC." For the price they charge you can get a graphic card that'd beat a PS5 anyway. The days of consoles outperforming PC's in purpose built applications is long gone. The SSD tech isn't that impressive and PC's will not lag behind it long enough to pay the early adopters tax.

Nintendo took a different strategy altogether and I'm inclined to agree that staying away from high TDP at the cost of performance is the wiser move. Portability, strong characters, and great games is sufficient to weather the storm. Once MS and SONY have converted all their followers to the subscription service fever dream, Nintendo if free to continue gouging it's fan base with locked down hardware, overpriced games, toys, collectables, and anti consumer tactics. Namely, artificial scarcity to justify never lowering prices. Business as usual, but without competition in the console market.

Rant over.

In the videos I watch most of them they use heater gun but I only have hairdryer. Will it be enough?
 
No hair dryer needed, just cut the silicone (but not the silicon! this can easily happen if you go too far under the IHS... but the biggest risk is cutting into the substrate which happens realy easily!) Delidding the CPU is far harder than delidding the RSX.
 
No hair dryer needed, just cut the silicone (but not the silicon! this can easily happen if you go too far under the IHS... but the biggest risk is cutting into the substrate which happens realy easily!) Delidding the CPU is far harder than delidding the RSX.

Thank you for the tips.

I must do this as CPU gets hot really easy.

But to be honest I'm kinda scared but I'll try to be careful as most as possible!

I'll go first with the RSX and then CELL.

Just another question, then how you put again the heatsink? Does it glue with thermal compound? Or easily moves itself?
 
Thank you for the tips.

I must do this as CPU gets hot really easy.

But to be honest I'm kinda scared but I'll try to be careful as most as possible!

I'll go first with the RSX and then CELL.

Just another question, then how you put again the heatsink? Does it glue with thermal compound? Or easily moves itself?
How are your temps on idle? And your temperature room?

If the CELL is overheating, first start with it, and leave the easy part for later. You might no need to delid the RSX at all. There're high chances you damaged the CELL and kill the PS3, it's something normal, so beware. Watch many videos on how to do it, find a good tool for the cutting, and keep watching videos.
 
How are your temps on idle? And your temperature room?

If the CELL is overheating, first start with it, and leave the easy part for later. You might no need to delid the RSX at all. There're high chances you damaged the CELL and kill the PS3, it's something normal, so beware. Watch many videos on how to do it, find a good tool for the cutting, and keep watching videos.

Hi.

Just did the following test, turn on PS3, launch Control Fan Utility and let standard fan mode. After 5 minutes here is the result

IMG-20201027-154534-1.jpg
 
Don't touch the RSX, is ok. You need to delid the CELL, but keep in mind what I told you. Watch NSC videos and then look for a tool, it needs to be very thin, and maleable.
 
Don't touch the RSX, is ok. You need to delid the CELL, but keep in mind what I told you. Watch NSC videos and then look for a tool, it needs to be very thin, and maleable.

But since in the RSX is easier why not?

But my main concern is how the heatsink is placed then? We don't glue it again right?
 
But since in the RSX is easier why not?

But my main concern is how the heatsink is placed then? We don't glue it again right?

You have to stick the IHS on the heatsink once you made the delid, so the next time you open the console, the IHS will be "glued" to the heatsink.

If you have more doubts about the procedure, you can start a thread with your doubts, since this is a NEC TOKIN related thread, and we're going off topic.
 
...Cell settles on 1.0903 VDC for a second before ylod kicks in. Rsx settles on 1.2926VDC before ylod...Isn't RSX reporting unusual high?

Not for an COK-001 at least (design spec. CPU = +1.0v, RSX = +1.2v). Assuming you got a good measurement before the YLOD, +100mV isn't outside the variance I would expect to find using a multimeter. Even a good one.

I know that I'm not the most smartest here talking about numbers, but thats a BC, COK001, maybe? Why do you believe that running a PS2 game provoked a YLOD? (It's instant btw? Like a short?). An A/B will run a Ps2 game natively, while a C/E will do it only emulating the E.E part, so why the problem should be on the RSX part if it wasn't involved that much when the YLOD happened? I'd look for a short somewhere in the bd drive stage, or powering part. What do you think? Also, check every cap with a capcitance reader before soldering.

It's a COK-001 (CEHCA01). The YLOD happened after I was in a PS2 Game, but it wasn't on that long either. It's not like I was testing it for hours with a PS3 game before trying a PS2 game and getting a YLOD. That defiantly would have me suspecting the PS2 hardware side of things. Instead it sat unused for about a week before I put in the PS2 games and it YLOD. This was maybe 2 or 3 power cycles after my initial success. Resistance reading on the capacitors prove they didn't short, which might happen if they failed. Tantalum caps tend to go out with a bang, but there are no burn marks or obvious signs they "raged against the dying of the light." After replacing all the NEC/TOKINs, confirming good resistance, no change.

My oscilloscope came in so when I get a chance I'll see if I can figure out how to use it. That should shed some insight on the capacitor circuit.

it's also worth checking your errors via syscon...
I am very interested! I need a tutorial for a COK-001. I read the github PDF briefly a few weeks ago, but it wasn't super clear for my board revision and I didn't spend much time looking into it. However, that is the next logical step for me. So I want to give it a go if you can point me in the right direction.

...But to be honest I'm kinda scared but I'll try to be careful as most as possible!

Just another question, then how you put again the heatsink? Does it glue with thermal compound? Or easily moves itself?
Don't do anything until you have watched enough videos and feel confident that you can do it. If you're nervous, keep watching videos until it turns to excitement. I'm serious! Positive psychological states help prevent self fulfilling prophecies. If you think you might fail, you are more likely to. So prepare until you feel ready, then go in with confidence! Just like studying for a test. Study like a champ, destroy the test.

But since in the RSX is easier why not?

But my main concern is how the heatsink is placed then? We don't glue it again right?
There is no reason to glue it back in place. I just place it back on the CPU and RSX pressing down with a bit of pressure until it feels like it wont move too much. Then I apply TC to the topside of the IHS and replace the fan. I haven't had it squirm or slip around. The better way is to mark the corners on the heatsink before cleaning off the old TC, so you know where to place the IHS after cleaning it. Apply new TC to the IHS and place it onto the Heatsink and firmly press it into the same position. The larger amount of TC between the Heatsink and IHS will adhere them together with greater force than it will to the dies and memory. So when you remove it next time, the IHS will come away with the Heatsink.

Again, watch videos until all of these variables are clear to you and your fear will disappear!
 
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I am very interested! I need a tutorial for a COK-001. I read the github PDF briefly a few weeks ago, but it wasn't super clear for my board revision and I didn't spend much time looking into it. However, that is the next logical step for me. So I want to give it a go if you can point me in the right direction.
The tutorial is based on a COK-002, I think, but my board is actually a COK-001 and I was able to connect and run all the commands. Where did you run into problems?
 
It's a COK-001 (CEHCA01). The YLOD happened after I was in a PS2 Game, but it wasn't on that long either. It's not like I was testing it for hours with a PS3 game before trying a PS2 game and getting a YLOD. That defiantly would have me suspecting the PS2 hardware side of things. Instead it sat unused for about a week before I put in the PS2 games and it YLOD. This was maybe 2 or 3 power cycles after my initial success. Resistance reading on the capacitors prove they didn't short, which might happen if they failed. Tantalum caps tend to go out with a bang, but there are no burn marks or obvious signs they "raged against the dying of the light." After replacing all the NEC/TOKINs, confirming good resistance, no change.
This is actually interesting (to me, at least) because my issue is somewhat related -- I was playing a PS2 game, my temps were fine and the thing wasn't even running very hot. I then powered off mid-game (not something I usually do), came back 3 hours later and it was dead.

IIRC, during my research, the temps are managed differently in PS2 mode, but I might be wrong about that. I've always wondered, though, if that had something to do with it.
 
Yeah, now that you mention it that jogs my memory. I remember the fan ramping up to a loud level after putting the PS2 game in. I was like, "WTF, the temps should be fine!" So I exited back to the menu and checked webMAN, temps were fine but the fan was at like 40%. Opened the webMAN temperature controls and found that's the default for PS2 (managed separately as you said). I lowered it to 35%, as that's the highest I've needed the fan to ramp since the TC change and testing GT6. I figured it would be fine. Within 2 minutes of going back into the PS2 game, YLOD.

So yeah, now you have me wondering too. I figured that little detail was irrelevant, since the PS2 hardware doesn't add much heat or load to the system. Now, I'm not so sure. What's the point of the default PS2 fan control being at 40% (I think that's what it was, but maybe it was 45%)? My guess is that it's not able to run in PS2 mode, at least I wasn't able to get the temps to display by holding Start+Select like you can in menu and in PS3 games. So, 40% would just be a safe, "high enough" fan speed.
 
Yeah, now that you mention it that jogs my memory. I remember the fan ramping up to a loud level after putting the PS2 game in. I was like, "WTF, the temps should be fine!" So I exited back to the menu and checked webMAN, temps were fine but the fan was at like 40%. Opened the webMAN temperature controls and found that's the default for PS2 (managed separately as you said). I lowered it to 35%, as that's the highest I've needed the fan to ramp since the TC change and testing GT6. I figured it would be fine. Within 2 minutes of going back into the PS2 game, YLOD.

So yeah, now you have me wondering too. I figured that little detail was irrelevant, since the PS2 hardware doesn't add much heat or load to the system. Now, I'm not so sure. What's the point of the default PS2 fan control being at 40% (I think that's what it was, but maybe it was 45%)? My guess is that it's not able to run in PS2 mode, at least I wasn't able to get the temps to display by holding Start+Select like you can in menu and in PS3 games. So, 40% would just be a safe, "high enough" fan speed.

Yeah, my theory is that when we load a PS2 game on a BC console, Syscon "disables" the PS3 OS and boots up the PS2 OS/hardware. This explains why fan management lives on the syscon side (since syscon is always running), why the controller disconnects when you load a PS2 game, or why when you push the home button on a PS2 game, you don't get a XMB background -- the XMB only exists as part of the PS3 OS, not the PS2. On models where the PS2 is emulated, PS2 is part of the PS3 OS, so it's just another PS3 software. This is probably not entirely accurate (where does the hypervisor live, and what else does it do?), but it might explain why temp management isn't as sophisticated on PS2 hardware mode vs Native PS3 mode.
 
Not for an COK-001 at least (design spec. CPU = +1.0v, RSX = +1.2v). Assuming you got a good measurement before the YLOD, +100mV isn't outside the variance I would expect to find using a multimeter. Even a good one.



It's a COK-001 (CEHCA01). The YLOD happened after I was in a PS2 Game, but it wasn't on that long either. It's not like I was testing it for hours with a PS3 game before trying a PS2 game and getting a YLOD. That defiantly would have me suspecting the PS2 hardware side of things. Instead it sat unused for about a week before I put in the PS2 games and it YLOD. This was maybe 2 or 3 power cycles after my initial success. Resistance reading on the capacitors prove they didn't short, which might happen if they failed. Tantalum caps tend to go out with a bang, but there are no burn marks or obvious signs they "raged against the dying of the light." After replacing all the NEC/TOKINs, confirming good resistance, no change.

My oscilloscope came in so when I get a chance I'll see if I can figure out how to use it. That should shed some insight on the capacitor circuit.


I am very interested! I need a tutorial for a COK-001. I read the github PDF briefly a few weeks ago, but it wasn't super clear for my board revision and I didn't spend much time looking into it. However, that is the next logical step for me. So I want to give it a go if you can point me in the right direction.


Don't do anything until you have watched enough videos and feel confident that you can do it. If you're nervous, keep watching videos until it turns to excitement. I'm serious! Positive psychological states help prevent self fulfilling prophecies. If you think you might fail, you are more likely to. So prepare until you feel ready, then go in with confidence! Just like studying for a test. Study like a champ, destroy the test.


There is no reason to glue it back in place. I just place it back on the CPU and RSX pressing down with a bit of pressure until it feels like it wont move too much. Then I apply TC to the topside of the IHS and replace the fan. I haven't had it squirm or slip around. The better way is to mark the corners on the heatsink before cleaning off the old TC, so you know where to place the IHS after cleaning it. Apply new TC to the IHS and place it onto the Heatsink and firmly press it into the same position. The larger amount of TC between the Heatsink and IHS will adhere them together with greater force than it will to the dies and memory. So when you remove it next time, the IHS will come away with the Heatsink.

Again, watch videos until all of these variables are clear to you and your fear will disappear!

i delid the RSX and applied new thermal paste. No any improvement, but like I said before the temps were already fine.

I tried to delid the CELL but I couldn't do it. Guess I don't have any proper tool. I even scratched a little the PCB and I was expecting the worse but the console still turns on fortunately. But I applied again thermal paste in CPU (the previous application that I did previous saturday when changed the caps was kinda badly applied) and now after 1h30min the while in Control Fan Utility the CPU temp is 63ºC and RSX 46ºC.
 
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