PS3 (Research/Experimental) - NEC/TOKIN Capacitors Replacement - YLOD

[RIP-Felix]

Q1. Does this sound like a candidate for the tokin cap replacement?...Before I remove them can someone tell me how to heat them up for testing to see if I can revive them and see if the PS3 will boot.

Unlikely, as something like 90% of all YLOD are due to BGA defects and not faulty NEC/TOKINs. The tokins can and do fail, but it's a rare occurrence. Most likely you got caught up in the hype and myth surrounding this fix. If you did, you're not alone. It's impossible not to after reading the initial post and first few pages. And you can be forgiven for not reading all 180 pages of this thread. That takes weeks (I know).

DO NOT USE HEAT TO REMOVE THE NEC/TOKINS! Also they are probably fine!

Now, before you do anything you need to decide which camp your in...There are 2 camps of people:

1. You were hoping to fix it yourself to save some money.
2. You were hoping to fix it yourself for the fun of it.

Spoiler: Camp 1 People

Sell your broke console for parts and buy a working console. It'll save you time and money. Most of the YLOD are due to BGA problems that you can't easily fix and requires equipment that costs more than a new console anyway. Not worth the trouble.

..."But my saves!", you say? Well...yeah! That's a fair counterpoint!

1. Perform the Pressure test to see if applying pressure to the RSX will allow your console to boot. This confirms a BGA defect and possibly allows you enough time to backup your saves.
2. If the pressure test doesn't work, consider the SYSCON error codes. It only costs $5 for the USB-Serial adapter and is easy to perform. IMO, the reason is to see if you have a 3034 (requires reball). If you don't, then it could be an easier DIY fix. But a 3034 is a death sentence for camp 1 people...
3. You can try using hot air over the RSX area. You're not reflowing it, just trying to warp the board a little. This is why many people initially thought the NEC/TOKIN fix worked, because the heat needed to remove/install tantalum caps mechanically reconnects the solder balls so the console will boot until the stress relaxes. The YLOD returns in days to weeks, long enough to get your saves backed up. But you don't have to remove the NEC/TOKINs and replace them with tantalum, that was a red herring! It was the heat that warped the board that actually made the YLOD go away (temporarily). The real fix in about 90% of cases a reball. 5-9% of the time it's a blown fuse, shorting cap, MOSFET, IC, or PSU. Maybe 1-5% of the time it's faulty tokins (by far the least likely thing).

Anyone looking to just fix their PS3 is stymied by SONY's anti right-to-repair practices. Without previous experience, proper tools, PS3 repair knowledge, schematics, project boards, donor boards, and working boards for reference, it's not likely a novice can easily fix their console.And if you're hoping to save money, forget it. Just buy another console, it'll save you time/money in the end.

Spoiler: Camp 2 People

Understand first that this can get expensive. Fixing PS3's involves learning to reflow/reball them. Doing this without destroying it is very tricky. You will likely destroy your first few boards before getting it right. Also, the equipment costs many hundreds of dollars. So you need to decide if that's what you singed up for or not.

I've only worked on A models (COK-001), but doing so familiarized me with the general hardware and engineering that went into the PS3. So now when I look at any model of PS3 I have a general idea of what I'm looking at and what it probably does. I have worked on other consoles too and am not shy about googling for many hours reading up on obscure electrical engineering papers and watching dry EE videos. If you want to learn how to fix your own console and enjoy this kind of thing, then by all means pickup a YLOD model we have schematics for. Troubleshoot it and learn about it. Then, once you're familiar with it and the purpose of many of the components, you can pretty much apply that knowledge to the consoles we don't have schematics for. For them, it's best to have a working board to use as reference for what normal voltages/resistances should be. Then you are in the dark. So probe and experiment.

 

[Sampsonay]

Alright so two more PS3's that I "fixed" replacing caps died again. One lasted about a month (CECH-E), the other (CECH-A) two weeks. The CECH-E only had SP-Caps, while the CECH-A was running the SP-Cap / MLCC combo I settled on.

I'm curious, can anybody recommend a reballing machine? @squeept I would like to apologize to you personally for being a prick initially lol. I have a hot air rework station and plenty of flux, but i'm quite doubtful that reflowing the factory solder will provide long term reliability. I'm willing to invest the time and money into repairing these things correctly, since not many others are willing to. That, and the PS3 has a special place in my heart.

 

[RIP-Felix]

Alright so two more PS3's that I "fixed" replacing caps died again. One lasted about a month (CECH-E), the other (CECH-A) two weeks. The CECH-E only had SP-Caps, while the CECH-A was running the SP-Cap / MLCC combo I settled on.

Updated my spreadsheet, thanks. Is the A01 that you did on pg172 still working? You did it a couple of days earlier than that E that failed. You did mention that it looked like it had been either reflowed or reballed, which to me could explain the tokin damage in the first place and also why it hasn't failed yet (assuming you know it hasn't).

 

[RIP-Felix]

Hey everyone. So I fixed my first BC PS3 the other day using the method on the first page. All I did was replace the one TOKIN cap with 4 tantalums. I was thrilled to have fixed one. So I went onto another one and replaced a single TOKIN cap with 4 tantalums and instead of a instant YLOD the system powered on but turns off after 5 seconds. So we went from instant YLOD to a 5 second YLOD... progress of a kind! So I took off the TOKIN next to that one and put 4 more Tantalums on there and now back to a instant YLOD. WTF! So I spent 4 hours removing all 8 tantalums to redo all 8 b/c I was unhappy with the soldering work and instant YLOD.

So having replaced both RSX Tokins I suppose the next step should be to start replacing the Cell Tokins. I just don't understand why I took a step back... went from a 5 second YLOD to instant. And even after removing all 8 Tantalums I am still getting a instant YLOD. I tried different PSU and it still does the instant.

I am getting my stuff for actually getting the error codes this week so I will use that before I do anything more with this one, but was curious if anyone had any thoughts.

Oh and quick question. When putting the tantalums on the negative areas of the board I am using the scratching method so I have more room to work. So I am scratching away at the motherboard to make a connection for the tantalums, but I was curious if it's possible to scratch too much? Like is there a point where I might have scratched too deeply in the negative area to have caused an issue?

Dude I totally missed your post! It sounds like you have a bridge. Double check your solder joints. Be sure to read the resistance between +/GND rails. It should be greater than 1 ohm otherwise it's shorted and you need to redo.

Yes it's possible to scratch too deep. However, the layers of the the board are separated by FR4 PCB substrate. You would feel it if you scratched through. And it would only be a problem if you kept going and scratched through to the next layer (unlikely).

It would have been better to have started with the pressure test and then the SYSCON codes. But since you started with the Tantalums, there's no sense crying over spilled milk. Just clean up your soldering, besure to have enough bridge wires, and know it's all good by verifying the resistance I mentioned above. Then resd the syscone codes and if you see a 3034, it's game over man (unless you want to try a reball/reflow)!

 

[Sampsonay]

Updated my spreadsheet, thanks. Is the A01 that you did on pg172 still working? You did it a couple of days earlier than that E that failed. You did mention that it looked like it had been either reflowed or reballed, which to me could explain the tokin damage in the first place and also why it hasn't failed yet (assuming you know it hasn't).

Yes, that system is still fine. I've gotten back with the owner and he hasn't had any issues to report.

 

[AC Denton]

Start here (pg137) and read up to now. You'll see how I got so pessimistic. All your question will be answered.

OK, I apologize if I'm making people repeat themselves but there are way too many pages in here! I'm an hour in and I seem to have scratched the surface.

I had my Slim PS3 die (11 years of service, RIP!) and since I wanted a replacement I decided to buy a japanese CECHH for way too much, because I thought that the YLOD thing was a solved problem and I always wanted to have a FAT unit for its aesthetical properties. It's a unit that has never been messed with internally nor had CFW, from a sole owner that didn't use it all that much (I have no reason to doubt it but I'll confirm on multiman once it arrives) and always used one of those USB fan intake add-ons with it. While I kinda regret not buying another slim/super slim, I don't wanna shaft the guy who sold me the unit, especially with this pandemic crippling a lot of people economically.

Q:
From what I gather, thermal stress is still an issue that requires reballing the CPU/GPU, and those are hilariously out of reach for a hobbyist like myself (and I thought I was hot shit for recapping all SMD caps on a PC Engine...) What can I do to prevent this the most leaving only the NEC novel type capacitors and trivial discrete components on the equation? Is there any consensus if filter cap replacement and proper non-syscon fan management is enough to make the system not kill itself?

-----------------------------------------------
I have no problem with removing those caps with a big tip and replacing them with Tantalum SMDs, but BGA reballing is way beyond what I can do haha. Removing the IHS is just about in that border between unconfortable and undoable for me, too, but I'd attempt it on a rainy day. I do have a RIGOL 2-channel scope and a TTL Serial drive, I can't promise doing any of the experiments here which are not for the faint of heart, but who knows really, maybe in the future to contribute.

 

[fwah]

random question, but if I'm going to solder capacitors on the back side of my PS3 motherboard .... can I solder without completely removing the motherboard? ie. after removing power supply and bluray and top shield, with motherboard still inside the PS3 case.

OR is this a BAD IDEA?

asking because I'm pretty low on thermal paste and reluctant to redo the whole ordeal with lining up the loose IHSes.

 

[Pacorretaco]

random question, but if I'm going to solder capacitors on the back side of my PS3 motherboard .... can I solder without completely removing the motherboard? ie. after removing power supply and bluray and top shield, with motherboard still inside the PS3 case.

OR is this a BAD IDEA?

asking because I'm pretty low on thermal paste and reluctant to redo the whole ordeal with lining up the loose IHSes.

Bad idea? It all depends on why you want to do it in the first place. (Probably bad yes)

Why are you going to "solder capacitors"?
Is the important question.
"How to" is still important, but way less.

 

[joe musashi]

today i found a website has 470 Capacitor for PS4 PS3 CECH-3000 will they work with fat model and also i found something for tantalum capacitor the sites are here and here

 

[squeept]

I'm curious, can anybody recommend a reballing machine? @squeept I would like to apologize to you personally for being a prick initially lol.

Eh, like I showed up with wine and roses. No worries.

I use an ACHI IR-PRO-SC, but they appear to be long out of production. As I've said when others have asked, it's not the greatest but it's made entirely of "off the shelf" components so it is infinitely and cheaply repairable. If you get something exotic and it breaks (which it will, the units basically set themselves on fire to work) you're at the mercy of whatever company made / sold it. I'd just check that the controllers and heating plates of whatever you get are generic, normal parts / sizes.

If you've got a high quality hot air station already, you might consider the Puhui T-8280 preheater that always gets good reviews. Then you just need nozzles, thermocouples, and a wand holder.

I've stopped reflowing entirely, it's just bad practice. It's unreliable, and adds extra rework cycles that make it more and more likely that you'll popcorn the board. There's just too much oxidation on these old systems, the chips need removed and cleaned.

And @RIP-Felix I don't want to give anyone false hope that BGA issues are so common either. I think it's more appropriate to just leave it at "RSX issues" instead, which then encompasses BGA cracks. I'm certain I've accidentally repaired damaged bumps or accidentally revived a dying chip with heat before. There's just no way to tell without cost prohibitive x-ray machines. Instead, I substitute thorough stress testing and a long warranty.

Speaking of stress testing, can I mark the board I sent you as finished and fixed now?

Also, the system I mentioned a few pages back that I left off the spreadsheet was a customer return from several years ago. I've got your board on deck, no worries if it doesn't work out. You certainly earned the reballed one with your meticulous work and write up.

 

[RIP-Felix]

Q:
...Is there any consensus if filter cap replacement and proper non-syscon fan management is enough to make the system not kill itself?

In short, all you can do is stave off the inevitable. The PS3 is a hot console. That was a descision SONY made. They have been prioritizing graphics since the PS3. That comes with reduced reliability for Flip-Chip BGAs. I have stated in the past that consumer protection agencies should ban FCBGAs used above 50C and that requier active cooling. CPU/GPUs should have a Pin-Grid-Arrays (like your computer processor), who's socket provides strain relief and easy replacement. It's an anti-consumer practice to continue soldering hot chips directly to the motherboard, where they will die predictably to thermal cycles. However, it does allow companies to plan the consoles demise and maximize profits. It complicates maintenance and forces people to use MNF authorized repair services...but that's not really what you asked.

1. Delid both the RSX and CELL_BE. Replace TIC with high quality product
2. Dust frequently, keep console off the floor
3. Stand the console vertically, it runs a few degrees cooler that way
4. Buy more working consoles and stash them. When the console finally does die, you can replace it. If you have enough consoles, they'll last you a while.
5. beyond that there are extreme solutions. Liquid metal, water cooling, other mods that are for crazy people.
6. EDIT: Forgot to mention webMAN. It allows you to set more reasonable fan curves. Alternatively you can change the SYSCON curve itself using UART (if you prefer not to install CFW).

Speaking of crazy people...

I was thinking of using liquid metal, but I want to know what the foam SONY used on the PS5 is called? This is to prevent evaporation and to contain it where it won't short anything. Does anyone know what it's called?

I'd like to get some of this foam and cut it to shape around the CPU/RSX. The RSX is harder, because it has SMD component on the substrate, but I can cover them with a conformal coating and electrical/kapton. The foam is important because I need it to be spogy to not block the IHS from making contact with the DIE, but springy enough to make a seal and contain the liquid metal there.

 

[squeept]

In short, all you can do is stave off the inevitable.

I was thinking of using liquid metal, but I want to know what the foam SONY used on the PS5 is called? This is to prevent evaporation and to contain it where it won't short anything. Does anyone know what it's called?

This is what I settled on for replacing the grey silicone stuff on the CELL (when it comes to thermodynamics, I'm going to mimic the scientists instead of pretending I know better): https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002UEN1A

Squirt a bunch in to syringe and luer lock your way to victory. I see no reason why it wouldn't be airtight and last forever under high temperatures. People use this stuff to make head gaskets on cars and shit. It can stand some abuse and be airtight.

 

[RIP-Felix]

It wouldn't help much with the RSX. That would only work for the CPU and, I may be overthinking this, but I was guessing the reason that SONY left an airgap in the silicone on the PS3 CPU was because they didn't want to seal a quantity of air inside. If you remember the ideal gas law from physics, and who could forget pv=nrt ("perv-nert"), when air gets hot it air expands and the pressure increases. Sealed in underneathe the IHS it would push up on the IHS ever so slightly, possable creating an air gap (unlikely I know, but my mind worries about such stupid things..seriously people don't go to college if you can get a good job without it. Ignorance is bliss!). Same with altitude (higher pressure inside, lower pressure outside). It's a small volume of air, so it's not like it would have great force, but perhaps enough over time to cause unnecessary stress.

That's why I like SONYs open cell rubber foam sponge gasket thing. I've found weather striping that looks similar, but it only comes in like 1/2 inch strips of various thicknesses. I'd need a sheet a couple inches wide. I can cut out around the die and memory moduls on the RSX. It would seal up the gap, but not so tightly that pressure couldn't deform the foam. Really it just needs to be a vapor barrier to prevent or slow evaporation of the liquid metal (yes metals evaporate) and slow or stop oxygen from oxidizing the liquid metal. That's why sony really globs the LM on there and sealed it up so well. Otherwise you would only get 1.5-2 years out of your PS5 (although I'm not sure why they'd care as long as it makes it past the warranty period...maybe bad optics?!).

 

[Sampsonay]

In short, all you can do is stave off the inevitable. The PS3 is a hot console. That was a descision SONY made. They have been prioritizing graphics since the PS3. That comes with reduced reliability for Flip-Chip BGAs. I have stated in the past that consumer protection agencies should ban FCBGAs used above 50C and that requier active cooling. CPU/GPUs should have a Pin-Grid-Arrays (like your computer processor), who's socket provides strain relief and easy replacement. It's an anti-consumer practice to continue soldering hot chips directly to the motherboard, where they will die predictably to thermal cycles. However, it does allow companies to plan the consoles demise and maximize profits. It complicates maintenance and forces people to use MNF authorized repair services...but that's not really what you asked.

1. Delid both the RSX and CELL_BE. Replace TIC with high quality product
2. Dust frequently, keep console off the floor
3. Stand the console vertically, it runs a few degrees cooler that way
4. Buy more working consoles and stash them. When the console finally does die, you can replace it. If you have enough consoles, they'll last you a while.
5. beyond that there are extreme solutions. Liquid metal, water cooling, other mods that are for crazy people.

Speaking of crazy people...

I was thinking of using liquid metal, but I want to know what the foam SONY used on the PS5 is called? This is to prevent evaporation and to contain it where it won't short anything. Does anyone know what it's called?

I'd like to get some of this foam and cut it to shape around the CPU/RSX. The RSX is harder, because it has SMD component on the substrate, but I can cover them with a conformal coating and electrical/kapton. The foam is important because I need it to be spogy to not block the IHS from making contact with the DIE, but springy enough to make a seal and contain the liquid metal there.

Makes me wonder how things would've turned out if the PS3 had no GPU like it was originally designed. I remember reading about how Sony originally wanted the Cell to handle everything. That idea then got scrapped, and the RSX was added to stay competitive with the Xbox 360. I imagine games would've looked utterly hideous without a GPU, but who knows, maybe the PS3 would've had top tier reliability from day one? I sure miss the days when the disc drive going out was the worst thing that could happen to a console. My PS1 is modified to play games off an SD card, i genuinely think this thing might outlive me lol.

 

[AC Denton]

Makes me wonder how things would've turned out if the PS3 had no GPU like it was originally designed. I remember reading about how Sony originally wanted the Cell to handle everything. That idea then got scrapped, and the RSX was added to stay competitive with the Xbox 360. I imagine games would've looked utterly hideous without a GPU, but who knows, maybe the PS3 would've had top tier reliability from day one? I sure miss the days when the disc drive going out was the worst thing that could happen to a console. My PS1 is modified to play games off an SD card, i genuinely think this thing might outlive me lol.

Sony was developing a custom GPU ("RS" similar to the Reality Synthesizer of the PS2 + LDCPU synchronization unit) that REALLY justified the SPEs which were meant to complement it, but they realized it wasn't economically viable to manufacture way too late, so Kutaragi eventually had to give, his compromise was to use another CELL for graphics, but they realized that would also be dumb so finally they went to nVidia. That's according to Rob Wyatt of Insomniac who said he also wrote a prototype renderer to the multi-CELL PS3.

 

[Billerd]

Edit: Nevermind. Figured out the answer to my question

 

[Billerd]

I do have one question, Is there any real difference between using a 330uf and a 470uf capacitor? My PS3 is an OG CECHA01 60 GB BC model. Going to be my first time attempting this fix.330uf are definitely cheaper so if there's no difference I'd obviously get them.

 

[squeept]

@RIP-Felix Quit being such a pervnert.... I'd be surprised if the foam, at that thickness, had enough give to offset any real increase in pressure. The ratio of wall height to air volume is just ...off. Kind of like how teflon tape is nice and soft and you can easily tear it with your bare hands, but it seals gaps in hundred PSI pipe threads because it has no elasticity in such tight spots. But like I said, I don't know thermodynamics and obviously they left a gap for a reason on the CELL. Just speculatin', don't mind me.

Just put your board in the oven. I also just used the ground spring that I didn't know I had for the first time, and holy hell what a difference. I can't wait to see if it will make any difference at 500mV for adjusting new lasers. I'm sure it won't matter in terms of the adjustment, but that eye pattern is gonna be so crispy clean.

 

[M13k0_27]

I do have one question, Is there any real difference between using a 330uf and a 470uf capacitor? My PS3 is an OG CECHA01 60 GB BC model. Going to be my first time attempting this fix.330uf are definitely cheaper so if there's no difference I'd obviously get them.

The difference is the total amount of capacitance that you put into... consider to put about 1200uf each removed nec/tokin, so 4x330 or 3x470...

ps
I suggest you to take a look to syscon guide, because nec/tokins are not always the problem.


Inviato dal mio iPhone utilizzando Tapatalk

 

[Billerd]

syscon guide?

how am I supposed to know what's causing the R/YLOD?

Nevermind that, I found what you're referring to, my brain is just fried looking at all of this because I have no real idea what I need/am supposed to be doing, and I'm going through the thread.