PS3 (Research/Experimental) - NEC/TOKIN Capacitors Replacement - YLOD
- Thread starter Naked_Snake1995
- Start date
Hi
I did reflow RSX only, hotair, flux, 230 centigrade for 2.5 minutes per chip without IHS. It works. If it breaks down, unfortunately I will switch to PS3 SuperSlim because reballing is quite expensive.
Temperature? 33% fan speed, 67 steps maximum in Killzone 3, 72 maximum in The Last of Us. Honestly, liquid metal in PS3 does not make a difference (but it was great for PS4 Pro)
Well,It's not random in my case,i know what workloads trigger the YLOD so as long as i avoid these workloads i won't experience YLOD.
RIP-Felix
Senior Member
Yesterday I added a liquid MetalPad between the IHS and HS of both the RSX and CPU. It was hard to get it to burn in though. I marked the IHS locations using a razor blade on the aluminum block so I could position the IHS correctly. Then I used hot air to get the indium foil to melt, which essentially solders the IHS to the heatsink. Indium foil will not corrode Aluminum like gallium does, and it has a higher thermal conductivity too.
On the dies, I'm currently using MX-4, because I didn't feel like tackling the next part of the job. I just wanted to test and get the console assembled and warmed up under tension, to hopefully burn-in the liquid metlaPads completely. But eventually, I'll use fingernail polish on the SMD components of the RSX and an ESD foam that's very thin and spongy. The nail polish will prevent shorts. The foam is to contain any spillover to the chip, with the console standing vertically, and helps limit evaporation. The problem is finding the foam. It can't be so thick it prevents the IHS from contacting the die/RAM with adequate pressure. Same for the CPU. I wish I knew what the foam SONY is using on the PS5 was called, so I could find/order it.
On the dies, I'm currently using MX-4, because I didn't feel like tackling the next part of the job. I just wanted to test and get the console assembled and warmed up under tension, to hopefully burn-in the liquid metlaPads completely. But eventually, I'll use fingernail polish on the SMD components of the RSX and an ESD foam that's very thin and spongy. The nail polish will prevent shorts. The foam is to contain any spillover to the chip, with the console standing vertically, and helps limit evaporation. The problem is finding the foam. It can't be so thick it prevents the IHS from contacting the die/RAM with adequate pressure. Same for the CPU. I wish I knew what the foam SONY is using on the PS5 was called, so I could find/order it.
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RIP-Felix
Senior Member
That's just a category I use to distinguish YLODs from one another.
- Warm-Start (Only starts when Warm)
- Cold-Start (Only starts when Cold)
- Instant (<1s)
- Non-Instant (1-10s)
- Delayed (10s - 5min)
- Random (Normal stress)
- Intense (High Stress, same place in certain games)
My unit has 2 out of the last 3,
And if my system is off for a few hours or more it will take a few attempts pressing the power button for it to boot.
Could it be the TOKINs as well?
If the machine is off for just a few minutes then i can turn it on no problems.
RIP-Felix
Senior Member
Sounds more like a warm start YLOD to me. Meaning that while the console is warm from the last session it'll startup just fine, but once it has cooled you have to start it up over and over to get heat into the board. The most likely reason for this is a thermomechanical reconnection of a BGA defect or die bump, due to warping. If that's the case, the SYSCON will give you a 3034 and some data error like 4401 among other possibilities. That would require a reflow/reball to fix.
There isn't a valid mechanism for a tokin to change it's behavior based on warming. I wrote a detailed analysis of the TOKINs back on Page 168 (Part 1) and 173 (Part 2) where I looked into that fairly deep, and heat doesn't affect capacitance or ESR of Aluminum Polymer/Electrolytic Hybrid capacitors by an appreciable amount. Not enough to support the "heat test" hypothesis. So that's been debunked.
CynoIsAway
Forum Noob
Hi, just wondering what my issue could be. I just replaced the NEC/Tokins and my YLOD went from 2 seconds to 1 second. It's a faster YLOD for sure. Any suggestions/tips?
RIP-Felix
Senior Member
Please provide more details so we can help you:
- What capacitors did you use? How many?
- Pictures of your work would be very helpful. Don't be ashamed of bad soldering, we've seen it all and won't cast judgement!
- What model PS3?
- What is the work history on this console? What led you to conclude the tokins should be replaced?
RIP-Felix
Senior Member
PM sent. I picked up a couple of new olds stock 40nm RSX's off e-bay. I'm hoping to try again pretty soon.
Hello everyone.
Long story short, bought used PS3 Fat, cheap AF, "warranty sticker" is on the place (which probably means it wasn't touched), seller claims that it's been few months or even years dusting while he already was playing PS4
After 1 day of gameplay consone stoped to turn of. Green light -> Yellow Light -> Red Blinking Light and 3 beeps, like from cold state or smth, like this:
So, reading this post, I wonder, what chance that NEC\TOKIN are the case?
And also have couple of questions.
Using multimeter would be I able to check which one have failed? If, for example, only one have failed - should i replace 3 another?
Do I have to change thermal paste after disassembly?
Long story short, bought used PS3 Fat, cheap AF, "warranty sticker" is on the place (which probably means it wasn't touched), seller claims that it's been few months or even years dusting while he already was playing PS4
After 1 day of gameplay consone stoped to turn of. Green light -> Yellow Light -> Red Blinking Light and 3 beeps, like from cold state or smth, like this:
So, reading this post, I wonder, what chance that NEC\TOKIN are the case?
And also have couple of questions.
Using multimeter would be I able to check which one have failed? If, for example, only one have failed - should i replace 3 another?
Do I have to change thermal paste after disassembly?
Pacorretaco
Member
Well, it's more possible that the tokins are already "fixed"
Than that the tokins need to be fixed.
Are you sure the machine was never opened?
In any case, unfortunately the highest chance is that you have RSX problems, judging from the video.
But the good news is that you can diagnose as you say to understand what is happening to the machine. (Because in reality it could be anything)
By communicating to the SYSCON.
Multimeter won't really be enough, for that you would need Oscilloscope.
Well, from what i know, if "Warranty seal" isn't touched, it wasn't opened. Am I wrong?
I could handle repearing like on tutorial, but not sure if syscon
marciolsf
Member
getting the syscon error is much, much easier, cheaper and reversible than replacing the tokins. If you're willing to open the case, then it's absolutely the first step.Well, from what i know, if "Warranty seal" isn't touched, it wasn't opened. Am I wrong?
I could handle repearing like on tutorial, but not sure if syscon
Take me, for example -- I butchered my tokins, only to find out a few months later that they were very likely just fine and what I really need is a reball. Now not only I have to find someone willing to do a reball on a system that's been mucked with, I still have to get a to in replacement in place #LearnFromMyFail
RIP-Felix
Senior Member
What model phat PS3?Well, from what i know, if "Warranty seal" isn't touched, it wasn't opened. Am I wrong?
Yes, that warranty sticker looks intact and it usually means the console hasn't been opened. However, there are ways to remove/replace it without it being obvious. Although, I doubt that sticker has been touched. It's too clean for even the most skillful A-hole. But it doesn't rule out the other way! I bought one console where the sticker looked pristine, but you can slide the top cover off because they broke the plastic piece the security screw is attached to. So no, you can't be 100% sure just by looking at pictures.
Everyone thinks that, but learns the truth too late. It looks easier than it is! If you think the SYSCON looks too hard, then you have another "think" coming. SYSCON is far easier than the tokin replacement! And it will tell you if the tokins are a waste of time/money. If you haven't already, DON'T BUY tantalums yet! They're far more expensive than the USB adapter needed for the SYSCON.
About 3% according to the techs who repair these consoles in volume. In other words, 97% of YLOD's are caused by other things. 90% RSX issues, such as BGA defects, Bump failures, RAM failures, etc. 7% are shorts, blown fuses, bad PSU, VRM, HDMI encoder and other ICs, and so on.
No, a multimeter wont tell you if/which tokin is bad. It can be used as an indicator of the Chip/filter's health. If you set it to resistance and read the +/GND rails on the tokin, 0-1 Ohm means dead chip/tokins. Somthing in there is shorting. Can be tokins, can be VRM, resistors, or the CPU/RSX itself. No way to know without further probing and SYSCON codes. 1-2 ohms is not healthy, but generally okay. 2-3 ohms is fine. 3+ ohms is healthy/like new.
If the paste if fresh you don't have to change TC after assembly for testing purposes. However, old dried up paste you must replace. And before final assembly you need a fresh application and burn-in.
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Basically, you suggest me to buy USB to TTL cable (that's that google told me that cable is), connect it to PS3 and check it's some sort of boot log (well, boot codes, error codes i guess)?
Ecco
Forum Noob
Hey Sampsonay, great fix and documenting, great idea, and..... i was wondering a few things...
Ive been looking over this thread for a few months trying to get a handle on what the issues are regarding the nec tokins... and with you adding the 'aluminum polymer caps' (matching the tokins makeup); Do you think that you gave the nec tokins the 'breathing' room they needed? Do you think that the nec tokins originally designed for the ps3 were at a 'full capacity' design... meaning any degridation of the tokins even slightly would be unable to pass the right amount of current to the cpu / gpu and thus give us the yellow/ red light problem? or trigger it? So... would you say your fix is kinda like opening back up the thurough-fare for the electricity.... or in other words; The tokins are degridated to 94% effeciency and you put in a 10% buffer bringing them back to 100%-104% (example). If this is the case do you think the tokins are most likely... just slightly not living up to thier specs and only need a little 'help' which you provided in your fix? Do you think the tokins are likely not to degrade (past a certain point) very much past their.... maybe.... initial flaw?
The other question i had was about the way you soldered the aluminum polcap beside the nec tokin...... did you extend the positive rail somehow to solder onto or did you just solder the very edge of the cap onto the tiny bit of rail extending out beside the tokins?
Thanks Rip-felix as well as I learned alot from your record/journal keeping
Look forward to your reply
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Pacorretaco
Member
It is worth mentioning that a normal machine can still boot with "half" the tokins entirely missing. That is, you can remove 2 tokins entirely from each side, and not replace them with anything. The machine can still turn on. With 50% missing.
So I doubt that the threshold for malfunction is 94%
But sure what you are saying makes sense. The concept still applies. I've documented success in 2 separate instances doing something similar.
However in this case... I'm afraid I'm still a bit unconvinced hehehe. @Sampsonay if you really want to convince us that you fixed artifacting on an old fat by messing with the tokins...
I propose the simplest experiment. Remove your additional capacitors and see if the issue comes back as expected. Then add them back to see if it goes away again in a predictable fashion.
This is why I always recommend this approach first without removing existing tokins. It is entirely reversible which can
be a way to eliminate other variables.
I was able to do this the first time I encountered error 80 1002. And sure enough, the test was successful every single time.
Because sadly you already know that the Syscon couldn't give anything conclusive this time. Since it's not really a YLOD... The error log is a whole bunch of nothing.
Ecco
Forum Noob
So, could we assume that possibly the 'Peak' output is actually the culprit?...
(example)
-So lets say the Nec Tokins can transfer what is needed to the rsx /cell at 95% or above efficiency (for lack of a better word)
-and work regardless, even if 2 were removed(from each side), but with more stress to the remaining tokins
-but at 94% efficiency on the tokins... maybe connected to the rsx or cell....and neither 4 or 2 tokins reaching 95% efficiency... then we have the problem?
-and the addition of the sp-cap just fills in the remaining 'efficiency gap' or 'headroom' etc that is needed?
Oh, and i didn't realize you took up the journey earlier on a similar method, thanks for the info on the success.
Cheers
RIP-Felix
Senior Member
Yes. Its a chip that monitors the health of the PS3 and records errors to help diagnose problems. SONYs service dept. would use it to quickly repair or replace the device. It saves time diagnosing. Until recently we didn't have access to it and were guessing. Now, we can. So that's the best place to start.
Its a matter of attenuation (noise reduction). Its a lot more complicated than a simple loss of capacitance. And it depends if we are talking about CPU or RSX tokins. It also depends on model. Some model PS3 can still operate with half their tokins missing, but not the BC ones. CPU tokins are more forgiving than RSX. If RSX tokins are good then you can probably get away the CPU tokins degrading by half their combined capacitance. But the console may have issues under load, IDK.
The other problem is that combining capacitors changes the frequency response curve and can introduce antiresonance peaks that actually increase noise. If that happens at a critical frequency, it could cause problem and be counterproductive. So there is more to this than just adding capacitance to make up for losses.
Sorry for the non-answer, but this is not a simple LC filter. Its a 2 stage filter combining RLC stages to amplify the attenuation. Its calibrated carefully and the parts chosen by SONY deliberately. We have to be careful to replace the tokins with an imperfect, but adequate alternative, since tokins are EOL and difficult to install.
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