PS2 [Open PS2 Loader] Game Bug Reports

[Zarper]

Yeah, like I said, it was always a simple timing issue caused by the fact that we never thought about the slower speeds of the CD-ROM and always adjusted everything for the DVD-ROM.

Not too sure that is entirely true. Phantasy Star works great with ESR once you've converted it to a DVD. And that should be a lot faster than 1 MB/s. Also it works a lot better without the current Mode 1 than with it. Which would suggest something other being the real problem and this just being a work around.

 

[jolek]

Yeah, like I said, it was always a simple timing issue caused by the fact that we never thought about the slower speeds of the CD-ROM and always adjusted everything for the DVD-ROM.

There are different speeds for ETH and HDD in my quick tests.
Maybe someone who has got faster\slower HDD will required different speeds?

Phantasy Star works great with ESR once you've converted it to a DVD

Thanks for a suggestion, I'll also try this game with ESR.

 

[TnA]

Yes, I did understand what you were saying.

No you did not and the following part of your reply just proves that...

It's just not true. OPL had a different mode in the unused slot before and it never decreased the compatibility. Adding one more mode again wouldn't either.

What I was talking about, has NOTHING to do with the Compatibility-Mode-'slots', but with the RAM-Usage, during runtime of the game...

Your approach is to let the cdvd-driver react to those bogous games, how they expect it... That means, running code which does that, during the game is running... That needs RAM and CPU-cycles for EVERY game (because the replacement-driver OPL 'injects' is the same in every case)!

The current ahead of time patching (before execution) saves RAM and CPU-Cycles... More free CPU-Cycles are important for non-DMA-enabled connections like USB and we could yield a higher bandwidth...
More free RAM is good, because some games already do overflow and we just recently (a few months) had a game which became incompatible, due to the driver-size increasing by ~100Bytes.

You're blowing things out of proportions.

No... You don't get, why your suggestion/approach of a 'JIT-Reaction', instead of a 'AOT-Patching' is just not feasible for OPL... If we would have had MORE IOP-RAM, that wouldn't really be a problem.

It would not increase the RAM usage so much that there would be compatibility issues because of it.

Adding one or 50 Compatibility-Slots would not, agreed...
But that's not what I was talking about...
You suggested a JIT-Patching/reaction-approach, INSTEAD of the current AOT-Patching and I just told you, why that approach is not a good idea.
We try to spare as much IOP-RAM and CPU-Cycles as possible, to get those games running properly... What do you think why USB-Games have to be defragmented? We have no Filesystem-driver running, whilst in-game... (to spare IOP-RAM)

Since it's already evident that it was an issue with too fas reading speed with CD games, we need to find the optimal value now, so that both Shadow Man and the Phantasy Star remake will work just like they do from the CD-ROM. This was an omission in the past. Nobody really thought about CD games because there's so few of them, but yeah, they need even slower speeds than DVD games since the CD reading is slower even real hardware.

Instead of a new or various new modes, I rather suggest a configurable read-speed-value, which is used, when Mode 1 is activated... That would yield the benefit of not adding any mode, but solely a new config-value (like cdvd-callback-timer a while ago) which enables us to do a lot of tests with variable values as well.


This however has NOTHING to do with the first thing you suggested... These are 2 entirely different things!

In fact I never said anything against the speed or timing-issues, but mentioned it like you can see... You even reacted to it... ...but you should not insist on it being the cause, because there is too less proof of it!

It's obvious, that one of these is likely a cause, because you can also see the same issue on quite some games, if you use a GameStar-Adapter!

 

[Grahf]

Maybe someone who has got faster\slower HDD will required different speeds?

No, because no HDD used with a PS2 could be realistically slower than those speeds. There are differences between HDD models, of course, but when we're slowing down the reading speed so much, it doesn't matter because and HDD will be able to read that slow.

Not too sure that is entirely true. Phantasy Star works great with ESR once you've converted it to a DVD. And that should be a lot faster than 1 MB/s. Also it works a lot better without the current Mode 1 than with it. Which would suggest something other being the real problem and this just being a work around.

It's mostly likely a CD image just burned to a DVD-R, so the PS2 still reads it like a CD game. Besides, we can't compare reading optical discs on the real CDVD drive to CDVD emulation. Also, how can you not be sure when the game now load without problems? You can't ask for a better proof.

What I was talking about, has NOTHING to do with the Compatibility-Mode-'slots', but with the RAM-Usage, during runtime of the game...

It would NOT break anything if added a mode for CD timing in the empty slot. The increase in RAM usage would not be high enough to break other games. As I said before, you are blowing things out of proportion. It would just be a replica of Mode 1, just with a different value. How much the RAM usage would increase with that? The removed Mode just wasn't needed since it didn't actually help with Fatal Frame, as was initially assumed. It wasn't removed because of RAM usage.

 

[Zarper]

It's mostly likely a CD image just burned to a DVD-R, so the PS2 still reads it like a CD game. Besides, we can't compare reading optical discs on the real CDVD drive to CDVD emulation. Also, how can you not be sure when the game now load without problems? You can't ask for a better proof.

That is not true at all.
First, ESR works by converting the game into a DVD Video, that is why you have to first convert the CD image into DVD image. So ESR will work as if it's a proper DVD.
Second, this is not proof of anything other than lowering the read speed affects something that makes it work. Could just as well be the need for some delay after some command. Or just about anything that gets effected by the lower speeds.

 

[Grahf]

That is not true at all.
First, ESR works by converting the game into a DVD Video, that is why you have to first convert the CD image into DVD image. So ESR will work as if it's a proper DVD.
Second, this is not proof of anything other than lowering the read speed affects something that makes it work. Could just as well be the need for some delay after some command. Or just about anything that gets effected by the lower speeds.

Even if it's burned as a DVD Video, the file structure remains identical as on CD. It's de facto a CD burned to a DVD, which is exactly what I was talking about. It's just a trick to fool the PS2. It's still reading a CD game.

Second, this is not proof of anything other than lowering the read speed affects something that makes it work. Could just as well be the need for some delay after some command. Or just about anything that gets effected by the lower speeds.

Did you bother to read the link I provided earlier? ramapcsx2 debugged this game to hell and back and spent a lot of time trying to patch it, but he never could. Why waste even more time when it's simply a timing issue which can be duplicated in the CDVD emulation? We need working games, not work on theories which lead nowhere.

 

[TnA]

It's mostly likely a CD image just burned to a DVD-R, so the PS2 still reads it like a CD game.

False...

Besides, we can't compare reading optical discs on the real CDVD drive to CDVD emulation.

Correct!

It would NOT break anything if added a mode for CD timing in the empty slot. The increase in RAM usage would not be high enough to break other games. As I said before, you are blowing things out of proportion. It would just be a replica of Mode 1, just with a different value. How much the RAM usage would increase with that?

You STILL did NOT even understand, what I was writing... Maybe someone with 'a bigger name' could tell you in another way, that I was NOT talking about those mode-slots! Do you get that into your thick skull? Can you finally comprehend, that I was NOT talking about these Mode-Slots? I even wrote that we could add 50 of these without increasing RAM-Usage in-game at all! I wrote about your PATCHING-APROACH JIT vs. AOT!!! DO YOU UNDERSTAND IT FINALLY? ...and THAT is bollocks!

 

[Grahf]

@TnA I told you at least three times before: I know you mean the actual mode itself, not the empty slot, but with such a simple compatibility mode the RAM usage would not increase to the point of breaking other games. You are blowing things out of proportion. Besides, it can always be tested since we're talking about a beta build. Adding manual values input to Mode 1 is a lazy solution and it would confuse the hell out of most users. We should find optimal values and try to add a compatibility mode just for the problematic CD games.

 

[jolek]

Even if it's burned as a DVD Video, the file structure remains identical as on CD. It's de facto a CD burned to a DVD, which is exactly what I was talking about. It's just a trick to fool the PS2. It's still reading a CD game.

I remember that Quake III: Revolution (CD) has a problem with ESR, the game will hang at first splash screen.
Through OPL (tool to convert BIN into ISO is needed) everything is fine.

 

[TnA]

Even if it's burned as a DVD Video, the file structure remains identical as on CD. It's de facto a CD burned to a DVD, which is exactly what I was talking about. It's just a trick to fool the PS2. It's still reading a CD game.

Are you assuming that, or do you know that... Well, you assume it, because the matter of fact is, that this Is NOT true!
It does not even keep the 2352Bytes per sector, or the LBA!

You are spreading your false assumptions as facts, which is in fact misinformation!


...and your non-factual assumptions based on faulty theories indeed lead to nowhere. You would understand why, if you would understand more about the Hardware/PS2.

 

[Zarper]

Even if it's burned as a DVD Video, the file structure remains identical as on CD. It's de facto a CD burned to a DVD, which is exactly what I was talking about. It's just a trick to fool the PS2. It's still reading a CD game.

I don't see how I can make this any clearer. You have to first convert the CD image into a DVD image. ESR doesn't work with CD images or CD structures. Have you ever used a CD game with ESR?

Did you bother to read the linked I provided earlier? ramapcsx2 debugged this game to hell and back and spend a lot of time trying to patch it, but he never could. Why waste even more time when it's simply a timing issue which can be duplicated in the CDVD emulation? We need working games, not work on theories which lead nowhere.

If it's so simple, why couldn't ramapcsx2 just lower the read speed, shouldn't be that hard to do in an emulator? I'm not saying to not use the fact that it works with lower speeds. Just that I'm not convinced that's the root cause.

 

[Grahf]

I remember that Quake III: Revolution has a problem with ESR, the game will hang at first splash screen.
Through OPL (tool to convert BIN into ISO is needed) everything is fine.

With optical media, there are too many variables. We have no way of accounting for all of them. Like a) the kind of optical media used b) the quality of optical media used c) burning speed d) burner quality e) burner firmware f) the number of working hours of the PS2 drive g) possible dirt and/or dust in the PS2 drive. Besides, ESR shouldn't be a template here. We should only observe how original discs behave on healthy drives.

 

[Grahf]

Are you assuming that, or do you know that... Well, you assume it, because the matter of fact is, that this Is NOT true!
It does not even keep the 2352Bytes per sector, or the LBA!
You are spreading your false assumptions as facts, which is in fact misinformation!

When I was using the PS2 CD/DVD image generator program, I could burn CD images to DVD discs and they still retained their CD structure. It was basically tricking the drive to read a CD from a DVD disc.

If it's so simple, why couldn't ramapcsx2 just lower the read speed, shouldn't be that hard to do in an emulator? I'm not saying to not use the fact that it works with lower speeds. Just that I'm not convinced that's the root cause

You can also ask yourself this: it's so easy, why are these games still incompatible with OPL? Because it was a simple omission, I guess. Shadow Man did work with HDL 0.8c using the "Slow HDD Access" mode, BTW.

 

[jolek]

With optical media, there are too many variables. We have no way of accounting for all of them. Like a) the kind of optical media used b) the quality of optical media used c) burning speed d) burner quality e) burner firmware f) the number of working hours of PS2's drive g) possible dirt and/or dust in the PS2 drive. Besides, ESR shouldn't be template here. We should only observe how original discs behave on healthy drives.

I was long, long ago, but from what I remembered...
This game checks LBA, when you convert this game from CD to DVD, it'll not boot.
It'll not work with ESR, because it is on DVD.
It'll work with swap magic with CD, but not with DVD.

 

[Grahf]

I don't know why we are even talking about ESR here. It has no bearing on OPL. We only need to compare with original discs working on a healthy PS2 drive.

Whether games like Shadow Man and the PS remake are buggy or not, the fact is that somebody programmed them that way and they work from start to finish on real hardware. Since we now know it's all about the timing, I don't see a point in trying to patch the games since we already know others have tried for a long time and couldn't do it. It's always the best way to emulate the original hardware behaviour if possible. In this case, it's a simple fix, not an elaborate one. Realistically, how much the RAM usage would increase if we added a duplicate of Mode 1, but with hard-coded speeds for these CD games?

 

[Zarper]

I don't know why we are even talking about ESR here. It has no bearing on OPL. We only need to compare with original discs working on a healthy PS2 drive.

Whether games like Shadow Man and the PS remake are buggy or not, the fact is that somebody programmed them that way and they work from start to finish on real hardware. Since we now know it's all about the timing, I don't see a point in trying to patch the games since we already know others have tried for a long time and couldn't do it. It's always the best way to emulate the original hardware behaviour if possible. In this case, it's a simple fix, not an elaborate one. Realistically, how much the RAM usage would increase if we added a duplicate of Mode 1, but with hard-coded speeds for these CD games?

I brought up ESR as part of my theory that limiting the read speed isn't sure to be the fix, it might just bring the fix with it. Like using a sledgehammer to hammer a nail.

And what speed should that be? If you haven't noticed, the speed required differs a lot between games and interfaces.

 

[Grahf]

I brought up ESR as part of my theory that limiting the read speed isn't sure to be the fix, it might just bring the fix with it. Like using a sledgehammer to hammer a nail.

And what speed should that be? If you haven't noticed, the speed required differs a lot between games and interfaces.

It's not like using "a sledgehammer to hammer a nail". These games work with lower speeds on original hardware because the CD-ROM in PS2 is slower. If you want to say it's a bad solution, you have to mail Sony with that. Tell them how awful it was to design PS2's optical drive like that. Meanwhile, we can fix these games with OPL.

We need more testing with Shadow Man and the Phantasy Star remake. @jolek, you have both, right? Can you please check how they behave on HDD and SMB with, say, 1000-1300 kB/s? Even if this fixes just two games, it's still worth a mode. We used to have a mode just for Fatal Frame and it didn't even work.

 

[jolek]

I've checked Shadow Man - 2econd Coming with ESR...
It has the same problems (textures missing) as OPL through ETH, HDD.

 

[Grahf]

I've checked Shadow Man - 2econd Coming with ESR...
It has the same problems (textures missing) as OPL through ETH, HDD.

That pretty much settles it: the DVD drive in PS2 is too fast for this game; it was specifically coded for the PS2's CD-ROM timing.

 

[jolek]

We need more testing with Shadow Man and the Phantasy Star remake. @jolek, you have both, right? Can you please check how they behave on HDD and SMB with, say, 1000-1300 kB/s? Even if this fixes just two games, it's still worth a mode. We used to have a mode just for Fatal Frame and it didn't even work.

I only have Shadow Man.
Anyway could you also test this game through ETH and HDD?
You can try it with "my" values?
OPL 0.8 for SMB, 1.5 for HDD with Demo mode.
After selecting language, wiat ~1 min at Press start button "page".
After ~1 min, demo mode should starts. Graphical glitches might appear at the end of this demo.