PS3 (Research/Experimental) - NEC/TOKIN Capacitors Replacement - YLOD

[marciolsf]

man I'm sorry but I couldn't quite understand what you said can you explain it to me in a simpler way?

I think you might benefit from watching some of the videos linked above... They cover a lot of the basics, and they should give you enough background to understand the discussions around the images Squeept posted.

 

[hoyohoo]

Hey guys, just a little update from my site: I canceled the order as I am too much in fear of the coronavirus... It might be harmless, but I am a bit of a hypochondriac. I am currently searching for a suitable alternative from germany. Is there is none, I will have to wait, until the virus thing in china comes to an end...
In the meantime, I could just buy an osci and look, what the difference is with my electrolyte caps is.

 

[TItans_Test_Team]

First post here,

I am wondering about the post on how certain games cause the YLOD and others that don't. Mainly being The Last of Us and Gran Turismo 6 and how Naked Snake1995 replaced some caps and it getting the PS3 to not YLOD on those titles anymore.

If this is true then the YLOD is almost if not always the capacitors and not the cracked solder balls.

I have a YLOD ps3 that I have replaced the caps for the bottom side RSX and I am getting YLOD for certain titles only. Mainly being MW3 and Uncharted 2.

Questions:

- If I replace all the caps, should I bridge all the positives on both sides of the boards?
- So I'll have 8 thick gage wires on my motherboard then?

Also for reference I managed to find a better way to remove the NEC/TOKIN capacitors than that way shown in some videos. I do recommend to use a little bit of heat on on top of this method I did but for some reason I got lucky on this donor board and managed to take off the caps fine without heat. Below is my video for reference.

URL:

 

[SiegHart93]

First post here,

I am wondering about the post on how certain games cause the YLOD and others that don't. Mainly being The Last of Us and Gran Turismo 6 and how Naked Snake1995 replaced some caps and it getting the PS3 to not YLOD on those titles anymore.

If this is true then the YLOD is almost if not always the capacitors and not the cracked solder balls.

I have a YLOD ps3 that I have replaced the caps for the bottom side RSX and I am getting YLOD for certain titles only. Mainly being MW3 and Uncharted 2.

Questions:

- If I replace all the caps, should I bridge all the positives on both sides of the boards?
- So I'll have 8 thick gage wires on my motherboard then?

Also for reference I managed to find a better way to remove the NEC/TOKIN capacitors than that way shown in some videos. I do recommend to use a little bit of heat on on top of this method I did but for some reason I got lucky on this donor board and managed to take off the caps fine without heat. Below is my video for reference.

URL:

replace 2 nec tokins on CELL too because there are some games that the necs on CELL cause YLOD ! i tested it myself with a CECHA01 that first i replaced 2 necs on the RSX and i tested Tekken Tag Tournament 2 and was still yloding the fix was replacing the necs on the CELL too and no more ylod till this day !

 

[TItans_Test_Team]

yeah I think I'll replace the bottom Cell NECs next and I'll see where that leads. So far Black ops 1 is running well. I was able to complete another mission. I think I'm going to play through the entire game again just as a benchmark. But I am looking to get mw3 and uncharted to work properly as a sure way to ylod proof this ps3.

I'm just unsure of the bridging part atm since I know the top NECs will still bridge if you replace all of the bottoms.

So I'm thinking of just replacing all of the NECs to be extra sure but am unsure if I'll have to bridge all positive points.

Would I have 8 thick gage wires then if I replace all the caps?

sorry this is my first time doing this.

 

[demetris]

1 bridge per chip per side so 4 total

Sent from the Island of Venus

 

[SiegHart93]

yeah I think I'll replace the bottom Cell NECs next and I'll see where that leads. So far Black ops 1 is running well. I was able to complete another mission. I think I'm going to play through the entire game again just as a benchmark. But I am looking to get mw3 and uncharted to work properly as a sure way to ylod proof this ps3.

I'm just unsure of the bridging part atm since I know the top NECs will still bridge if you replace all of the bottoms.

So I'm thinking of just replacing all of the NECs to be extra sure but am unsure if I'll have to bridge all positive points.

Would I have 8 thick gage wires then if I replace all the caps?

sorry this is my first time doing this.

I leaved the NEC/TOKIN's on top of the board (where RSX and CELL are present), just replacing all the NEC's on the side of the board (in where RSX and CELL are not present). I did that and my CECHA01 is working like a charm without any ylod issues anymore since that. And i didn't used any wires to bridge them because the NEC's i leaved are working as a bridge for the tantalums on the other side. I wish u good luck dude

 

[TItans_Test_Team]

I leaved the NEC/TOKIN's on top of the board (where RSX and CELL are present), just replacing all the NEC's on the side of the board (in where RSX and CELL are not present). I did that and my CECHA01 is working like a charm without any ylod issues anymore since that. And i didn't used any wires to bridge them because the NEC's i leaved are working as a bridge for the tantalums on the other side. I wish u good luck dude

alright thanks I'll give it a shot and will post results.

I hope this will make the games run stable as I don't want to remove the top side (side with chips) as it'll be more work.

 

[TItans_Test_Team]

I leaved the NEC/TOKIN's on top of the board (where RSX and CELL are present), just replacing all the NEC's on the side of the board (in where RSX and CELL are not present). I did that and my CECHA01 is working like a charm without any ylod issues anymore since that. And i didn't used any wires to bridge them because the NEC's i leaved are working as a bridge for the tantalums on the other side. I wish u good luck dude

I am happy to say that this fix worked!

I replaced the bottom 4 NEC caps and now the PS3 is no longer YLOD on uncharted and MW3 anymore! I will have to do more extensive testing but for the meantime it's looking very good.

I don't have Gran Turismo 6 or The Last of Us but I do have GT5 so I'll have to give that a shot. If that works it will be pretty good proof this ps3 is rock solid.

I also delidded the ps3 so temps are good I'd hope. But I must get a temp monitoring software first. Will have to check out that soon.


So to reiterate, YLOD is mostly from bad caps and not cracked solder balls. If you're still in denial you should give this a shot yourself to see with your own eyes!

To summarize:

- A PS3 with BAD CAPS but with intact SOLDER BALLS ON BGA can be fixed with changing the caps.
Likely hood of occurrence: HIGH

- A PS3 with GOOD but with non-intact SOLDER BALLS ON BGA can be fixed by reballing but given that the cracks are dislodging the RSX from the PCB. Though even if the cracks are non-dislodging you should still reball to be sure.
Likely hood of occurrence: LOW


I would like to see this cracked solder ball claim be actually backed up with actual images of a ps3 with cracked solder balls. No more research articles showing other devices with cracked solder balls... It's time to accept that people were wrong initially.

Even if somebody does manage to show some cracked ps3 solder balls it'll probably be the one exception of it happening it's not like it's the norm.

So thanks to Naked Snake1995, Sieghart93 and everyone else involved in this!




Thanks for the suggestions!


It's definitely not the solder balls 100%

Replace your caps on your phat ps3 people!

 

[Naked_Snake1995]

I am happy to say that this fix worked!

I replaced the bottom 4 NEC caps and now the PS3 is no longer YLOD on uncharted and MW3 anymore.


Thanks for the suggestion!


It's definitely not the solder balls 100%

Replace your caps on your phat ps3!

Glad to hear, you cant say its 100% not the solder balls, there are some case cenarios where the solder-balls are the issue due to physical damage or corrosion, mind stating the model on which you worked with?

 

[TItans_Test_Team]

Glad to hear, you cant say its 100% not the solder balls, there are some case cenarios where the solder-balls are the issue due to physical damage or corrosion, mind stating the model on which you worked with?

CECHExx

COK-002

Software emulation ps3.

Thanks for posting the guide Snake!

Yeah check my edited post, I did realize that but the likelyhood of cracked solder balls is low.

 

[wrx884]

agree this seems like only 1 motherboard u have fixed so please dont come here stating false statistics and guesses because at the end of the day u are doing the same assuming as people that are claiming the re-balling issues too. Dont forget these consoles have aged now so more than likely these caps will pop up more so now than what they did b4 they had done their operating hours (1000 Hours) so theres still a fair few variables to consider here.

If anything u should be putting those caps on an oscilloscope like its been suggested to confirm this is the issue and also to back up the same claims so we can all jump on the oscilloscope band wagon if thats all it takes to test them.

1 bridge per chip per side so 4 total

Sent from the Island of Venus

you only need 2 bridges, 1 for cell and 1 for RSX, the vias on the opposite side connects each positive side together as is. tho its not going to hurt if u have more its just not needed to act the same way an original tokin does.

 

[pure3d2]

I am happy to say that this fix worked!

I replaced the bottom 4 NEC caps and now the PS3 is no longer YLOD on uncharted and MW3 anymore! I will have to do more extensive testing but for the meantime it's looking very good.

I don't have Gran Turismo 6 or The Last of Us but I do have GT5 so I'll have to give that a shot. If that works it will be pretty good proof this ps3 is rock solid.

I also delidded the ps3 so temps are good I'd hope. But I must get a temp monitoring software first. Will have to check out that soon.


So to reiterate, YLOD is mostly from bad caps and not cracked solder balls. If you're still in denial you should give this a shot yourself to see with your own eyes!

To summarize:

- A PS3 with BAD CAPS but with intact SOLDER BALLS ON BGA can be fixed with changing the caps.
Likely hood of occurrence: HIGH

- A PS3 with GOOD but with non-intact SOLDER BALLS ON BGA can be fixed by reballing but given that the cracks are dislodging the RSX from the PCB. Though even if the cracks are non-dislodging you should still reball to be sure.
Likely hood of occurrence: LOW


I would like to see this cracked solder ball claim be actually backed up with actual images of a ps3 with cracked solder balls. No more research articles showing other devices with cracked solder balls... It's time to accept that people were wrong initially.

Even if somebody does manage to show some cracked ps3 solder balls it'll probably be the one exception of it happening it's not like it's the norm.

So thanks to Naked Snake1995, Sieghart93 and everyone else involved in this!




Thanks for the suggestions!


It's definitely not the solder balls 100%

Replace your caps on your phat ps3 people!

If you're in the US, you can buy The Last of Us at GameStop for $2.99. I just bought a copy on Friday to use for testing.

 

[TItans_Test_Team]

agree this seems like only 1 motherboard u have fixed so please dont come here stating false statistics and guesses because at the end of the day u are doing the same assuming as people that are claiming the re-balling issues too. Dont forget these consoles have aged now so more than likely these caps will pop up more so now than what they did b4 they had done their operating hours (1000 Hours) so theres still a fair few variables to consider here.

If anything u should be putting those caps on an oscilloscope like its been suggested to confirm this is the issue and also to back up the same claims so we can all jump on the oscilloscope band wagon if thats all it takes to test them.



you only need 2 bridges, 1 for cell and 1 for RSX, the vias on the opposite side connects each positive side together as is. tho its not going to hurt if u have more its just not needed to act the same way an original tokin does.

Thanks for tip about the bridges, I'll be definitely keep that in mind.

So about what you said, yes that is true this is the first console I've fixed with the capacitor method. But there are many other people out there with the same experience and results. That should mean something.

The oscilloscope is a complete and 100% legitimate way to test out components nobody should think otherwise.

But not everybody has access to an oscilloscope which is unfortunate. We must make do with what we have. So unless somebody is willing to put in the time and research into that and generate some results about how there is no such thing is bad caps for the PS3.

So I guess what somebody should do is:
- bust off the plastic top of the NEC caps (all of them on the ps3) and take some readings while a ps3 is running the Last of Us and other games.
- If the PS3 already has YLOD hopefully it still retains its original caps post whatever repair method was done (reflow, reball)



"Capacitors are at great risk for failure. While it is certain that over time some wear out and no longer adequately serve their purpose, capacitors can also fail prematurely.
This article will show the various points where capacitors can be damaged and are at the highest risk of failure. Designers that are aware of these points will be better suited to choose the right capacitors for their applications and possibly avoid failures.
A component fails when it no longer meets the requirements of the application"
Link: https://www.electronicproducts.com/Passive_Components/Capacitors/Failure_modes_in_capacitors.aspx

Specifically the part where it says "A component fails when it no longer meets the requirements of the application" a PS3 that has bad caps on the motherboard meets this criteria thus changing it shouldn't be such a big fuss. Not being able to run intensive titles proves this.

Link: http://www.repeater-builder.com/tech-info/pdfs/replacing-capacitors-from-emerson-corp.pdf


"Capacitors have an end of life The aging process in the capacitor can be visualized by considering a water dam with 4 5 a small leak. Over time, the small water leak grows. The movement of the water through the dam causes deterioration within the dam structure. In spite of the growth in the leak rate, the leak rate is still small and the dam still functions as a dam. As water continues to leak, the structure of the dam is compromised. When sufficient damage occurs, the probability for a near term failure becomes very high and the dam needs to be taken out of service. During the capacitor aging process the electron leakage current and the chemical reactions both cause a decrease in the capacitance value and an increase in the resistance value. Both of these changes (decrease in capacitance and increase in the resistance) are tied to damage taking place inside of the capacitor. Once sufficient damage to the capacitor has been sustained, the probability for the capacitor to fail increases and when this probability becomes high, the capacitor should be taken out of service."

Seems like changing caps is a normal procedure for basic electronics. The capacitor is working pretty intensively and maybe there were some flaws in the NEC/TOKIN design that we'll never fully investigate but if you want to do that you're going to need some intact NEC/TOKIN to dissect and investigate. I am sure this bit about capacitors is general rule for many capacitors everywhere.


As I have stated in my prior post:


- A PS3 with BAD CAPS but with intact SOLDER BALLS ON BGA can be fixed with changing the caps.
Likely hood of occurrence: HIGH

- A PS3 with GOOD but with non-intact SOLDER BALLS ON BGA can be fixed by reballing but given that the cracks are dislodging the RSX from the PCB. Though even if the cracks are non-dislodging you should still reball to be sure.
Likely hood of occurrence: LOW


Maybe you don't agree with the occurrence part of it which I understand.

Do cracked solder balls cause YLOD? - Yes they do 100% they do but the crack must be in some way disconnecting the contact of the RSX from the PCB. If it's a transverse, oblique, spiral, rotated or impacted in a way for the RSX to still make contact with the PCB chances are the PS3 is still going to work though if there was a way to 100% verify this you best do a reball anyways.


There is a time for reball and there isn't.


I paraphrase Louis Rossman – Reball repair is for weak willed people who are looking to make a quick buck. - End paraphrase.
Yes, this is true! But this comes with the understanding that reball does have a proper place in electronic repair when;

- You need to replace the Chip because you know it has failed
- You know there is physical damage on the chip that prevents it from working
- You are repairing a device where you know 100% and have indisputable fact that there are damaged solder balls (cracked, corrosion and everything else under the sun)
- You want to repair the device long enough for the customer (or whoever has to retrieve data )can retrieve data quickly off it and the customer is aware of this fact and will not use the device for anything else other than retrieving their data in the short amount of time they don't know they have but are willing to take this risk anyways in the hope they'll be able to get that data off as quick as possible in the hope of no hardware failure.

Aside from these points as stated above I cannot see any other reasons into reballing as a legitimate permanent repair.


What really allows me to believe in the capacitor more so than the cracked solder ball is through simple deduction.

- If I cannot get past the first level of MW3 and the console fails at pretty much the same exact place in the level but I can play through half of black ops 1 campaign then there is something strange happening with the capacitors.

- If this was the solder balls cracking (cracked in a way where
it is disconnecting the contact of the RSX from the PCB)
the PS3 shouldn't even be able to boot let alone play the game because of Lead free's 217 C average melting point.

- If the solder balls are melting and reforming at sub 100c underneath a chip we should see some more proof about that one. This one is going to take some equipment and some to prove.


If anybody wants to feel free to take off the plastic top of the NEC/TOKIN caps and measure some results when the ps3 is under load but other than that I'm pretty confident changing the caps will often solve the YLOD than reballing will.


I've seem posts from 2014 of cap replacement. Seems like this only being relevant here due to the attention this post and Displaced Gamer's video.

I hope I didn't come across as condescending.

Thanks again for the suggestion about the bridges!

I cannot find some from 2014 but I have seen it. Here is one from 2016 and it appears that other countries have figured this out a long time ago.

 

[wrx884]

lol thanks for reinstating things that have already been pointed out in this thread im not disagreeing at all that this isnt an issue, its been proven already, im sure people can read but wasn't really necessary. cheers for the effort tho.

Just remember too not everyone starts off with a console that is failing mid game and with certain titles so really this was a no brainer if ur following this thread and a much easier way of diagnosing this issue. You also dont need to take off the tokin caps cap to test, sqeept has already pointed out where to take the testing points from so really thats all thats needed. The units on offer to test these are cheap as chips so they are easily affordable for everyone, if u cant afford these really u shouldn't be attempting the repairs.

ur also forgetting that contamination is another factor when re-balling is needed, this is proven even on the early model ps4's, the same rules applies. No one is arguing ur point u just have to accept both sides of the fence and treat them as they are, just leave out the false hope with statistics we cant prove yet.

 

[TItans_Test_Team]

Then we'll have to wait and see if testing out bad caps while they are operating can lead to ylod or not.

Because if they don't show any sign they are bad and the console works - everything is working as it should

The caps are bad and the the console fails - then the caps are at fault not the solder balls

The caps are good and the the console fails- time to bust out some xrays or whatever ways to check the solder balls or you can just reball out right without checking but for the cracked solder to be valid there should indisputable proof.

There are 3 YLODs that I am aware of:

The Delayed YLOD - due to bad hardware failing during load (bad caps that can work for XMB but not games, Solder balls melting during load and etc)
The 2nd Delayed YLOD - This one happens when the console shows maybe 0.5 seconds of life and shuts off immediaely same reasoning as one above but more drastic.
The Instant YLOD - had components on the board (serious hardware problem, cracked RSX die, missing SMD components and etc)

I think I am accepting of both sides of the fence I've made that quite clear.


How I would recommend diagnosing YLOD ps3s?

1. Make sure it's the proper YLOD that is delayed and not immediate. If it's immediate you got other problems to worry about
2. Replace the NEC/TOKIN Caps
3. If replacing NEC/TOKIN Caps doesn't do it, chances of a reball or a chip swap are higher but ensure that caps are taken care of first


If you want to talk statistics we'll need people dedicated to this cause and quantifiable results. This would definitely take sometime.

Time that many of us don't have and money that simple isn't worth investing into for a business venture so niche. But if somebody does by all means go ahead.

Best bet to save everybody the trouble is to get some of those repairs shops that have done well before 2019 and see what they have to say about this because I am sure their experience and word in on this can help extinguish some fires here.

 

[Cypher_CG89]

Solder balls melting during load and etc)

Maybe you should google the melting point of lead free solder before stating that......

A PS3 will never reach this temp as it will enter thermal panic (below 100*C) and would auto shutdown well before this temp... lead free solder melts @217*C.

There is no possible way for the PS3 to reach this temp on its own.

EDIT: If your PS3 could reach this then the whole damn case/shell would melt and catch on fire. Not very good for consumer safety.

 

[TItans_Test_Team]

Maybe you should google the melting point of lead free solder before stating that......

A PS3 will never reach this temp as it enter thermal panic (below 100*C) and would auto shutdown well before this temp... lead free solder melts @217*C.

There is no possible way for the PS3 to reach this temp on its own.

I agree, but I was simply including for the sake of not counting out any deformities of the solder balls (cracked, deformed and etc.)

I agree with you. If you can view my entire post again you'll see.

 

[Cypher_CG89]

I agree, but I was simply including for the sake of not counting out any deformities of the solder balls (cracked, deformed and etc.)

I agree with you. If you can view my entire post again you'll see.

There is no point including things that are impossible to happen on a PS3. > solder balls melting during use.

Things like cracked and deformed solder balls can be included, these are generally manufacturing defects.

Cracked can mainly happen 2 ways > cold soldering and user mistreatment> ie they dropped the effing thing or bash it about when moving it. Deformed is also in manufacturing defects> improper machine calibration or the solder being to hot.

And these things are impossible to control during manufacturing 100% of the time and would pass a QA inspection/test as the product would work but is liable to early failure down the line. And sometime's a product can have these defects and also never fail.

This type of stuff is basically like Alice tumbling down the rabbit hole to go down lol.

 

[wrx884]

u got buckles chances of anyone owning and providing xrays just for ps3's, im sure if u done ur research u will see what costs are involved to own one let alone get another company to do some for u. but ur right time tells all and atm we just dont simply have it in the results or any documentation of it to know for sure whats what a part from what we see here really so again all im saying is leaving out statistics coz it seems u were only guessing these as well.