PS3 (Research/Experimental) - NEC/TOKIN Capacitors Replacement - YLOD

[Pacorretaco]

Btw maybe this is slightly outside of the conversation. Or it's probably soon to talk about the ugly yet but,
Is there any kind of test you can do to an RSX to see if it's bad (or good?)
The ohms check on the tokin - and + pads I don't think is very meaningful. I tested and saw working consoles change this value after power cycles quite substantially (from 1.6 ohm to 3.3ohm) on a working console.

I'm asking for other ways maybe even out of circuit, probing the chip's bga pads themselves.

 

[nyislander]

In my case I would do a reball only if I don't know what else to do, or discard any other fault like a dead RSX, and this is where the SYSCON method comes to play.

From this thread: https://www.psx-place.com/threads/f...syscon-first-steps-and-error-reporting.30100/

So I started this thread to have a deep discussion about the YLOD on the PS3 (mostly FAT versions) and how to use the SYSCON to understand further what can be done to repair the ps3.

My main reason that drives me to do this is that I've seen alot of miss informed threads on how to fix YLOD ps3, there is alot of valid pointers but the basics have to be done first.

It would help all of us if we extracted the SYSCON error(s) prior to doing any work on the motherboard and after any repair attempts.

 

[Pacorretaco]

From this thread: https://www.psx-place.com/threads/f...syscon-first-steps-and-error-reporting.30100/


It would help all of us if we extracted the SYSCON error(s) prior to doing any work on the motherboard and after any repair attempts.

True, but be realistic. If you want to be comfortable simply pointing people to do the Syscon thing... There has to be a better guide. That would really help everyone, and reduce the number of years that need to pass before the YLOD gets figured out and our current conversations become no longer relevant.
But right now? I think it's understandable that people dont bother to do the right thing.
Even some guys that are fixing ps3s outside of the personal realm still aren't doing it. And I don't want to think it's only because they are lazy.

I understand it's hollow to simply ask for a better guide. Maybe it's just something that can't be brought to the level of the layman with a broken ps3.
But maybe it is possible. If I knew, I'd have done a video guide myself.

I also suggested the idea of checking these error logs maybe with a piece of homebrew. This would be very helpful, believe it or not, and much more accesible.

Then once more I'm just asking without clue

 

[RIP-Felix]

Constructive criticism is always the hardest thing to take (even for scientists). It can feel like a personal attack, when it's actually a necessary reality check. Sometimes it's the only way to break us out of our bias. And bias is the reason for peer review. We all have bias that blinds us from seeing something. An outside perspective is often needed to point out otherwise obvious errors. It takes humility to concede the point, but it's absolutely critical to get at the truth - if such things are important to you.

Don't get me wrong guys, I'm only saying that BGA defects cause false positives and funky behavior. Unless you remove that variable up front, it will always loom over your conclusions. Staunch skeptics will ask, "How do you know for sure?" And they would be justified in doing so.

I'm not saying to reball first. If there is a less destructive way to repair the console, by all means explore those avenues first. Having said that, I wouldn't recommend removing the NEC/TOKINs unless you know they are bad. If you intend to hire a reballing service, they may refuse to work on it if they see them removed. That's why I like "farkinstien's monster", a parasitic daughter board or just wiring a new tokin up. It's unobtrusive and reversible. That's my favorite kind of mod! If a simple lack of capacitance is at fault, it could help diagnose it (without an oscilloscope).

Where it gets complicated though, is that you don't want to leave that parasite dangling. The added capacitance is sub-optimal for this second stage filter. There doesn't appear to be any way to know which cap failed, but it would be better to replace all of them with new caps anyway - That is if doing so didn't place so much stress on the board right next to the sensitive, and probably very brittle, CPU/GPU BGA; The replacement might cause a BGA defect. You might confirm a lack of capacitance, disassemble, replace the caps, but now have a BGA defect that wasn't there before. Or perhaps it was there all along and when re-assembeling the pressure changed or the board warped such that it caused a mechanical reconnection and you falsely believe it was your caps that fixed it. There's no way to know for sure which it was, unless you reballed first to remove that possibility. So now you're in a catch 22. Replace the caps and risk the BGA, or live with sub-optimal parasitic caps dangling from the board and never knowing if the console will fail in a week or a year.

I'll put it this way, I'm glad I bought an Oscilloscope!

Is there any kind of test you can do to an RSX to see if it's bad (or good?)
The ohms check on the tokin - and + pads I don't think is very meaningful. I tested and saw working consoles change this value after power cycles quite substantially (from 1.6 ohm to 3.3ohm) on a working console.

I'm asking for other ways maybe even out of circuit, probing the chip's bga pads themselves.

Probably, if you're SONY. I'm only aware of the Ohm test you can perform on the GPU itself after removing it. Like you said the ohm test on the token rails isn't very useful. Case in point, I did test this just for kicks after PS3#2's reball attempt. It read 3.5 and 3.6 Ohms (CPU/RSX respectively).

PlayStation 3 #2: Update
Yesterday I removed the rest of the NEC/TOKINs and installed 18x 270uF, 2.5v, 6mOhm ESR TaPol caps. Total capacitance = 4860uF matching SONY's specifications and the ESR is 0.333, which is better than the NEC/TOKIN array. I used 3x 20AWG solid core conductors for the + rail bridge this time (larger than PS3#1). While the soldering is a bit sloppy, it's electrically sound. The resistance after installation was 2.8 - 2.9 Ohms +/GND, indicating they are installed correctly without shorts. Pictures:

Spoiler

Result = YLOD, no change.

Discussion:
Originally I replaced only one NEC/TOKIN on the bottom side of the board (for both the CPU and RSX):

Spoiler

That worked great and was super stable during the first few days of testing. I was able to jailbreak the console and install webMAN mod to get fan control away from the SYSCON. I tested NBA Live 2010 for 1 hour. No problems. Then I download/installed all the updates to Gran Turismo 6 which took all night (it's a seriously HUGE DL). The console was on for about 18hrs strait. The next day I played GT6 for a few hours, temps were completly under control (<70C). I concluded that the console was fixed and shut it down.

Over the next few weeks I may have turned it on a couple of times, but it mostly sat unused. Then I picked up a PS2 title cheap from a local thrift shop. I thought, "I haven't tested a PS2 title yet." So I poped it in and within 2 minutes the console YLOD!

So that brings me this weekend. If the BGA was fine and the NEC/TOKINs were the problem, then replacing them should have fixed the PS3. But it didn't! The EE research I've done suggests that 4800uF is important for the best performance of the circuit SONY engineered (COK-001 motherboard). Theoretically, I should not need more capacitance. @squeept's oscilloscope measurements suggest this as well. Although his probing technique could have been better, they do show more noise above and below 4800uF. That seems to confirm the theory. So I highly doubt that adding more capacitance at this point would make a difference.

The only way forward for me now is to reflow/reball the RSX. This makes two consoles that have failed shortly after trying the "Tantalum Fix." While yes, I confirmed the tantalum "fix" temporarily made the YLOD disappear, so far in my experience it has not lasted more than a few power cycles. This may be discouraging news, but my piddly two experiences, @squeept's many experiences, and the evidence we've gathered so far is consistent with the YLOD being primarily a BGA problem. The idea that, "we have all been assuming the BGA was at fault, when all along the capacitors were the culprit" is a tantalizing narrative, but that doesn't make it true. As a scientist, I'm obligated to suspect it's a red herring.

For reference I found the post I made after installing the TaPol caps in. They read 2.8 and 2.9 Ohms respectively before. Obviously the Reball attempt improved this resistance. It seems to indicate how well things are soldered. I'm still not sure if this is a very meaningful "health meter", but ordinarily I would consider 3.5 Ohms super good. But as we know, there are bridges under the chip that caused the reball attempt to fail, but these joints appear to be good.

I was so tired and fed up after this reball attempt that I was probably overreacting (being emotional). This console may warrant another attempt or at least some post mortem Oscilloscoping.

 

[marciolsf]

True, but be realistic. If you want to be comfortable simply pointing people to do the Syscon thing... There has to be a better guide. That would really help everyone, and reduce the number of years that need to pass before the YLOD gets figured out and our current conversations become no longer relevant.
But right now? I think it's understandable that people dont bother to do the right thing.
Even some guys that are fixing ps3s outside of the personal realm still aren't doing it. And I don't want to think it's only because they are lazy.

I understand it's hollow to simply ask for a better guide. Maybe it's just something that can't be brought to the level of the layman with a broken ps3.
But maybe it is possible. If I knew, I'd have done a video guide myself.

I also suggested the idea of checking these error logs maybe with a piece of homebrew. This would be very helpful, believe it or not, and much more accesible.

Then once more I'm just asking without clue

I had a longer response typed up, but the key issue is python -- most of the time it's getting python up and running with the right libraries is where people really get stuck. There's enough of a learning curve in this project, and no one wants to learn python just to get the into the syscon.

Anyway, I totally digress. I've recently taken a few python classes, to the point where I think I can fix the compatibility issues and simplify the getting started stuff. With the Christmas break coming up, I can probably dig out my dead A01 and get the updates done. In the meantime, if someone is familiar with python and anaconda and wants to chat, I have a few ideas...

 

[db260179]

True, but be realistic. If you want to be comfortable simply pointing people to do the Syscon thing... There has to be a better guide. That would really help everyone, and reduce the number of years that need to pass before the YLOD gets figured out and our current conversations become no longer relevant.
But right now? I think it's understandable that people dont bother to do the right thing.
Even some guys that are fixing ps3s outside of the personal realm still aren't doing it. And I don't want to think it's only because they are lazy.

I understand it's hollow to simply ask for a better guide. Maybe it's just something that can't be brought to the level of the layman with a broken ps3.
But maybe it is possible. If I knew, I'd have done a video guide myself.

I also suggested the idea of checking these error logs maybe with a piece of homebrew. This would be very helpful, believe it or not, and much more accessible.

Then once more I'm just asking without clue

If anyone wants the task of making a clearer guide, then do a git pull request to my repo.

Do be honest I wanted to share my experience and keep a record of how we can fix the PS3 in a logical way with diagnosis.

I was excited to find that the syscon could be used and feedback, what the hell was going on.

In terms of 'beginners guide', this isnt target at that audience, and i was not targeting them in the first place. This is for people with basic electronics knowledge and keen to learn and understand.

This is just the first part of the battle to fix the ps3!, the other parts are having the correct tools, patience and trial an error.

In terms of homebrew, this part is way beyond me, but a theory is that we can create a modified syscon firmware patch?

Sony has done a good job of keeping the syscon hidden from the user level, so it will be a task to expose that - being that it is a hypervisor level control.

Also remember not all PS3 models have their syscon exposed via uart, so this is the reason its mentioned in the guide as specific models.

 

[db260179]

Btw maybe this is slightly outside of the conversation. Or it's probably soon to talk about the ugly yet but,
Is there any kind of test you can do to an RSX to see if it's bad (or good?)
The ohms check on the tokin - and + pads I don't think is very meaningful. I tested and saw working consoles change this value after power cycles quite substantially (from 1.6 ohm to 3.3ohm) on a working console.

I'm asking for other ways maybe even out of circuit, probing the chip's bga pads themselves.

Based on me fixing these FAT PS3s, it is very meaningful, its a ball park figure not an exact reading but an idea if there is further issues.

The nec tokins are linked to the CELL and RSX power lines, the actual resistance is based on the core of those chips. So if you are getting 0.1ohms, then you know that the CELL or RSX is knackered. Also you can use this to see if there is shorts or open circuits.

Testing RSX and CELL can only done properly when removed, there is no other way! Due to the board design and its grounding of the components.

Trust, me I have fixed at least 10+ FAT PS3, and only 2% have had faulty NEC tokins the rest have been poor BGA connections, short circuits, blown fuses or just dead RSX.

 

[Yugonibblit]

Thought this might make nice contribution

 

[squeept]

Thought this might make nice contribution

Welp, that set me off on a search that's lasted about 2 hours. I thought maybe it might be a standard footprint that I could match up to new parts somewhere. I found out that KEMET acquired the NEC TOKIN division, so I browsed literally every KEMET capacitor from every major supplier that was around the target values. No dice.

But, I thought you'd all like this one I found in case anyone still thinks loss of capacitance is the issue. You can put that idea to rest with one of these bad boys from KEMET: https://www.digikey.com/en/products...gUwDQgPZQDaIAzAJzkgC6eADilCCAL4t4BMx4HADLzRZA

2.7V.... perfect.
0.25mOhm.... perfect.
And finally, 1200 ...... farads.

 

[RIP-Felix]

UCC proadlizers huh? Just found the product info. His is the 1000uF, 2v, 2mOhm ESR version. They appear to be of identical construction to the NEC/TOKIN prodilizers. Availability is still an issue, as both are obsolete, but we can still buy up new old stock for a while. I have stated the best replacment for a proadilizer is a proadilizer, but I suspect we can expect a similar failure rate.

 

[Yugonibblit]

Welp, that set me off on a search that's lasted about 2 hours. I thought maybe it might be a standard footprint that I could match up to new parts somewhere. I found out that KEMET acquired the NEC TOKIN division, so I browsed literally every KEMET capacitor from every major supplier that was around the target values. No dice.

But, I thought you'd all like this one I found in case anyone still thinks loss of capacitance is the issue. You can put that idea to rest with one of these bad boys from KEMET: https://www.digikey.com/en/products...gUwDQgPZQDaIAzAJzkgC6eADilCCAL4t4BMx4HADLzRZA

2.7V.... perfect.
0.25mOhm.... perfect.
And finally, 1200 ...... farads.

i thought you guys might find that interesting i thought it was.

 

[marciolsf]

UCC proadlizers huh? Just found the product info. His is the 1000uF, 2v, 2mOhm ESR version. They appear to be of identical construction to the NEC/TOKIN prodilizers. Availability is still an issue, as both are obsolete, but we can still buy up new old stock for a while. I have stated the best replacment for a proadilizer is a proadilizer, but I suspect we can expect a similar failure rate.

Well, if the specs are correct (and who knows, since we never got the specs for the tokins) it might be a good alternative to those that already replaced their tokins with tantalums and would like to revert back to spec. I don't know how hard it is to find actual original NEC tokins /shrug

 

[nyislander]

I don't know how hard it is to find actual original NEC tokins /shrug

https://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-Proa...888110?hash=item25e651756e:g:neEAAOSwWHBaHQ~a

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/32979864961.html?spm=a2g0o.productlist.0.0.1db17f6bx13V4o&algo_pvid=7b1c060d-adb1-4aae-a525-2a1b33916a34&algo_expid=7b1c060d-adb1-4aae-a525-2a1b33916a34-2&btsid=0b0a555f16084791572966786e59d6&ws_ab_test=searchweb0_0,searchweb201602_,searchweb201603_

 

[hibernate]

What is the voltage of presented smd capacitor? There are various models.
Also should i need to replace all NEC capactiors?

 

[hibernate]

Based on me fixing these FAT PS3s, it is very meaningful, its a ball park figure not an exact reading but an idea if there is further issues.

The nec tokins are linked to the CELL and RSX power lines, the actual resistance is based on the core of those chips. So if you are getting 0.1ohms, then you know that the CELL or RSX is knackered. Also you can use this to see if there is shorts or open circuits.

Testing RSX and CELL can only done properly when removed, there is no other way! Due to the board design and its grounding of the components.

Trust, me I have fixed at least 10+ FAT PS3, and only 2% have had faulty NEC tokins the rest have been poor BGA connections, short circuits, blown fuses or just dead RSX.

I am little bit confused. The post is saying that most commonly the problem is with the NEC capacitors, here you provide different information that only 2% had faulty NEC tokins. Others can also confirm this. So if this the final statement, please someone edit the post and update the information.

 

[RIP-Felix]

Only the OP or a MOD can do that, so far as I know.

Spoiler

Models of PS3 with more reliable RSX chips (65nm/40nm) "MAY" have the TOKINs go bad first. Members in the forum with later model fat consoles have reported better success than have those replacing filter caps on backward compatible models. If you have a late model PS3 this could work, but therein lies the problem with this thread. So few people have the tools needed to properly diagnose the issue (Oscilloscope) that they end up spinning their wheels chasing BGA false positives and muddling the results for those of us trying to gauge the prevalence of bad tokins vs BGA defects. There are just too many factors and unknowns to make any "final statements" yet.

Also, a lot can go wrong depending on your skill, technique, and tools you use. It's possible that changing the caps could cause an aging, brittle, but otherwise functioning BGA to crack from thermal stress. Or you could just mutilate the board.

One thing is for sure. The YLOD was not misdiagnosed all this time. The BGA does, and will go bad eventually. But now we know the NEC/TOKINs can also go bad, which is why this thread still has value. Sure, it's not the miracle fix we all wanted, but how often do fairy tales come true? I'm afraid this is a case of the old adage, "if it's too good to be true, it ain't."

What's worse is that it's made all the more confusing now that there are people posting videos on youtube. They show the cap replacement and the YLOD disappearing then the video ends and we are left to assume that means they "lived happily ever after," when it could have had another YLOD in a week or two. We never find out because that's not the kind of thing people like to admit to after posting a video that misleads millions of people...

"Sorry guys, I was wrong. I guess reballing isn't a scam after all. Sorry for making you think it was a good idea to mutilate your consoles. Good luck getting a reballing service to accept it now! Oh and don't forget to like, comment, and subscribe!"

Seems like a good way to kill a channel. So of course they aren't going to admit it didn't work. Or maybe they don't know, because they're to busy making videos to actually play video games. It could be sitting in a box collecting dust ever since, or given away to a subscriber, or sold on e-bay to an unsuspecting sap paying $250 bucks for a dud. How would we ever know?

"But what if actually did work," you ask? Seems too good to be true, doesn't it. So what would we be thinking? IT AIN'T!

The YLOD has earned it's acronym! If you have it, it's not easy (or cheap) to fix. It's better not to let a working PS3 overheat in the first place. Delid, replace TIC, repeat when fans levels rise again. Eventually though, the YLOD will kill your PS3. Heat kills electronics. And Hot consoles die sooner. A reball is inevitable.

Sorry. Anctually, no. I'm not sorry! The truth is a bitter pill to swallow. I didn't make the console and won't apologize for SONY's mistake.

 

[unique]

what is the recommended resistance of tantalums for slim version?
which one would you choose from conrad.de ?

 

[Yugonibblit]

what is the recommended resistance of tantalums for slim version?
which one would you choose from conrad.de ?

330 uf 2.5v

 

[unique]

is 7mΩ ok?
should it be 105°C?

 

[ElGris]

Hey people first of all, happy holidays to all of you

I made a video of a few YLODs I have over here, and compared them, seeing some aspects like time and light patterns. Maybe it could be useful for something. I'll put some notes of the consoles in the video.

*CECH-K Longest YLOD, it looks like this one needs a NEC fix. State: Warranty sticker intact.

*CECH-B Long YLOD, I added a few tantalums on RSX but green light time didn't change, I won't be touching this one for now. State: Bought in poor conditions, mobo remains untouched (thank god).

*CECH-A It has a "short but not instant" YLOD, if you wanna see it in that way, I think this could be BGA damage, or NECs, you never know without SYSCON.. State: Untouched.

*CECH-H_a This one died on me for the 2nd time, I suspect bgas are trolling me right now. I removed all the tantalums installed, leaving 4 NECs on CELL.

*CECH-H_b This one was also running and died for no reason, bgas maybe? No NECs at all. Notice the instant YLOD on these two Hs are the same.

*CECH-G Exact same green light time as "A", I think we have a pattern here. This "G" was bought running, died for no reason after test it a couple of times. This is a bga issue, from here to China. State: Untouched.

*CECH-E_a With all NECs removed in the back side, this one is doing something different, so this could be anything. I bought it with those NECs removed already..

*CECH-E_b A little slower than both Hs, but instant for sure. State: Untouched.

Those Hs were doing the same green time as the G when they had the tantalums installed.

One thing that I want you to notice, is that in the last segment of the video, if you pause it, you can clearly see how lights are shinning yellow/orange before the green light appears, indicating a problem even before the actual YLOD shows up. For example on E_a is easy to notice, and only B and H_b aren't doing this. Btw, all the consoles have the green light moment synced, since all of them have different behaviours before and after this state.

---------------------------------

@Yugonibblit

Hey man, how many fatties you fixed with the Super Slim caps? Are they reliable? Those consoles were tested good and are still alive?