PS3 (Research/Experimental) - NEC/TOKIN Capacitors Replacement - YLOD

littlebalup said:
I agree. If 330uf didn't worked is probably because other // tokins lost some capacitance. Better to replace all of them.
Click to expand...
Yep, he was replacing them by 4* 470uf though... so the examples i used are not very accurate of what he did, most probably was something like this:

RSX tokin 1= 1100uf (lets say for some reason one of the tokins resisted well all the years of use)
RSX tokin 2= 900uf (this probably is the most common wear out after years of use)
RSX tokin 3= 600uf (this one was very damaged)
RSX tokin 4= 470uf + 470uf + 470uf + 470uf (this is the one he replaced by tantalum caps)

The resulting capacitance... well, dunno
But the biggest problem is you have the tokin3 very damaged and is making the whole RSX group to be very inestable

The only way to know this is by measuring the capacitance of the factory tokins... but you know... the only accurate way to meassure capacitance is "offboard" (after you desoldered it from the board)
And here we are "destroying" the tokins to desolder them from the board... so is not posible to meassure them "offboard"

If at some point you make some tests with all this (and incase you have a multimeter able to meassure capacitance), take a look at which values they gives you "onboard" (before desoldering them)
As said, this capacitance value meassured "onboard" could not be realistic, but could be orientative

Also, please try to confirm that the tokins are connected in groups of 4... by looking at the photos i think they are but i dont have a PS3 fat motherboard to check it
 
sandungas said:
Yep, he was replacing them by 4* 470uf though... so the examples i used are not very accurate of what he did, most probably was something like this:

RSX tokin 1= 1100uf (lets say for some reason one of the tokins resisted well all the years of use)
RSX tokin 2= 900uf (this probably is the most common wear out after years of use)
RSX tokin 3= 600uf (this one was very damaged)
RSX tokin 4= 470uf + 470uf + 470uf + 470uf (this is the one he replaced by tantalum caps)

The resulting capacitance... well, dunno
But the biggest problem is you have the tokin3 very damaged and is making the whole group to be very inestable

The only way to know this is by measuring the capacitance of the factory tokins... but you know... the only accurate way to meassure capacitance is "offboard" (after you desoldered it from the board)
And here we are "destroying" the tokins to desolder them from the board... so is not posible to meassure them "offboard"

If at some point you make some tests with all this (and incase you have a multimeter able to meassure capacitance), take a look at which values they gives you "onboard (before desoldering them)
As said, this could not be realistic, but could be orientative

Also, please try to confirm that the tokins are connected in groups of 4... by looking at the photos i think they are but i dont have a PS3 fat motherboard to check it
Click to expand...

I'll check, measure, map... as usual. However, I'm not sure my capacitance meter is able to measure 4800uf... It will drain my meter battery in one shot...lol
 
littlebalup said:
I'll check, measure, map... as usual. However, I'm not sure my capacitance meter is able to measure 4800uf... It will drain my meter battery in one shot...lol
Click to expand...
Thanks, im interested in that details since time ago :)
Im going to use a photo from a PS3 slim to show it, im not sure if what is at right of the photo is RSX, but for CELL is the same, and is the same schematic for all PS3 models
rxF6FjS.jpg

My point is each 2 tokins are soldered in paralell (this is obvious by looking at the photos)... but the VIAS in the V_IN and V_OUT sides are connected with another 2 tokins at the other side of the board

So electrically, the circuit is like this:
DfMkPLq.jpg
 
...and by replacing the tokins with tantalum capacitors what you are doing is this circuit
eSjiK4K.jpg


As you can see, incase of replacing all the tokins is needed to use 1 wire to connect V_IN with V_OUT
This is the wire i was discussing before... there is people that uses lot of wires for it, but only is needed 1 (use a thick wire btw)
 
sandungas said:
Thanks, im interested in that details since time ago :)
Im going to use a photo from a PS3 slim to show it, im not sure if what is at right of the photo is RSX, but for CELL is the same, and is the same schematic for all PS3 models
rxF6FjS.jpg

My point is each 2 tokins are soldered in paralell (this is obvious by looking at the photos)... but the VIAS in the V_IN and V_OUT sides are connected with another 2 tokins at the other side of the board

So electrically, the circuit is like this:
DfMkPLq.jpg
Click to expand...


Capacitors work in parallel. So in parallel to the RSX connected to +2.5v and gnd.
 
Btw, the V_IN and V_OUT are the names refered to the tokin
V_IN is the voltage that enters in the tokin, and V_OUT the voltage that goes out of the tokin

The reason why that lines have different names is because inside the tokin are not directly connected together
The tokins was doing some filtering of the current, to remove ripple, interferences, etc... and additionally it have capacitors inside
We use to say the tokins are simply capacitors, but is not true... they was doing some more functions

Anyway... when you remove all the tokins of the group of 4... then the lines previouslly named V_IN and V_OUT disconnects... this is why is needed to add 1 wire in between them
And that line cant be named V_IN or V_OUT anymore... is the main voltage line for RSX (so we could say is RSX_V_IN)
Fanhais said:
we can scratch this holes for make the solder there ?
Click to expand...
Yes, we was talking about it in other forum thread, i made some drawings suggesting the best places to do this, see this post https://www.psx-place.com/threads/c...one-game-ylod-style.20826/page-11#post-157707
In this image i was suggesting to use 2 tantalum capacitors of 1000uf each (later i realized tantalum capacitors of 1000uf are not so common)
dAoQT0t.jpg

But is better to do what is explained in this tutorial, because:
-Are not needed much wires (so less risk of short circuits)
-if you remove the tokins, the tantalum capacitors fits very well
-incase you have one of the factory tokins in internal short circuit is mandatory to remove it
 
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sandungas said:
Btw, the V_IN and V_OUT are the names refered to the tokin
V_IN is the voltage that enters in the tokin, and V_OUT the voltage that goes out of the tokin

The reason why that lines have different names is because inside the tokin are not directly connected together
The tokins was doing some filtering of the current, to remove ripple, interferences, etc... and additionally it have c9apacitors inside
We use to say the tokins are simply capacitors, but is not true... they was doing some more functions

Anyway... when you remove all the tokins of the group of 4... then the lines previouslly named V_IN and V_OUT disconnects... this is why is needed to add 1 wire in between them
And that line cant be named V_IN or V_OUT anymore... is the main voltage line for RSX (so we could say is RSX_V_IN)

Yes, we was talking about it in other forum thread, i made some drawings suggesting the best places to do this, see this post https://www.psx-place.com/threads/c...one-game-ylod-style.20826/page-11#post-157707
In this image i was suggesting to use 2 tantalum capacitors of 1000uf each (later i realized tantalum capacitors of 1000uf are not so common)
dAoQT0t.jpg

But is better to do what is explained in this tutorial, because:
-Are not needed much wires (so less risk of short circuits)
-if you remove the tokins, the tantalum capacitors fits very well
-incase you have one of the factory tokins in internal short circuit is mandatory to remove it
Click to expand...

Original mount seems the "Filter circuit design" per the tokin spec. By bridging Vin-Vout, we transform it to the "Decoupling circuit design". We may replace the bridge by a coil.
 
littlebalup said:
Original mount seems the "Filter circuit design" per the tokin spec. By bridging Vin-Vout, we transform it to the "Decoupling circuit design". We may replace the bridge by a coil.
Click to expand...
The tokins can work in 2 different modes, the way how sony used them in the PS3 is the "Filter circuit design"... so they are filtering the power line (and also working as capacitors)

But if you remove all the tokins of a group (lets say the 4 for RSX), and connect v_in with v_out we are not transforming it into the "Decoupling circuit design"
We remove all the internal circuits from the tokins that was doing the "filtering"... but we keep the function of the capacitors (with the new tantalums)

So... not sure if is needed the coil... all people that was doing this repair made that bridging with just wires
 
sandungas said:
The tokins can work in 2 different modes, the way how sony used them in the PS3 is the "Filter circuit design"... so they are filtering the power line (and also working as capacitors)

But if you remove all the tokins of a group (lets say the 4 for RSX), and connect v_in with v_out we are not transforming it into the "Decoupling circuit design"
We remove all the internal circuits from the tokins that was doing the "filtering"... but we keep the function of the capacitors (with the new tantalums)

So... not sure if is needed the coil... all people that was doing this repair made that bridging with just wires
Click to expand...
.
giphy.gif


Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
 
sandungas said:
Lol, we are doing this basically, no magic inside :)
vpDCJRx.jpg






Compare it with the other drawing i made before, is the same circuit :)
eSjiK4K.jpg
Click to expand...
So wait, you're saying they are interconnected between each other, and only 1 Bridge point its required? Ive seem something like this.

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Naked_Snake1995 said:
So wait, you're saying they are interconnected between each other, and only 1 Bridge point its required? Ive seem something like this.
Click to expand...
Yes, by all the small VIAS (holes) pointed by the gray arrows in this drawing:
rxF6FjS.jpg


There are several types of VIAS, this ones seems to be of type 1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_(electronics)
Via_Types.svg

At the other side of the motherboard you have more tokins connected to the same VIAS (im not sure about this, please check, but i would bet on it)

This VIAS are also connected to an intermediate layer of the motherboard... and going back to a voltage regulator protected with a fuse (thermistor)... and going more back the regulator is connected to one of the main "power rails" of the motherboard

So... the voltage comes from an intermediate layer of the motherboard... then in the VIAS goes to the most external layers of the motherboard at both sides... for the tokins
 
Just made this, hope is correct, keep attention at the direction of the red lines and arrows
S7YBhpP.jpg

1) The voltage comes from an intermediate layer of the motherboard
2) Then it "emerges" in the VIAS at both sides of the motherboard (for the tokins, 2 at each side)
3) After the tokins then it returns using more VIAS to one of the sides of the motherboard (the opposite of the RSX side)
 
sandungas said:
Just made this, hope is correct, keep attention at the direction of the red lines and arrows
S7YBhpP.jpg

1) The voltage comes from an intermediate layer of the motherboard
2) Then it "emerges" in the VIAS at both sides of the motherboard (for the tokins, 2 at each side)
3) After the tokins then it returns using more VIAS to one of the sides of the motherboard (the opposite of the RSX side)
Click to expand...

In fact, the Vin / Vout are maybe already tied by an internal layer (yellow tripe). So no need of an additional bridge, so its already a decoupling circuit.
1oktCm0.png


I found an old dead VER-001. I'll remove all the tokin proadlizers to confirm or infirm that.
 
littlebalup said:
I exhumed a dusty dead KTE board to see how sony replaced the Proadlizers by tantalum capacitors.
The tantalum capacitors are coupled with others additional ceramic capacitors between V+ and GND. I'm not seeing any aditionnal inductors/coils. That mount seems pure decoupling circuit as the example seen here : https://www.tokin.com/english/product/cap/proadlizer_closed_20140320/test2.html

YMQ9IFW.png
Click to expand...
Good found btw, the suggested schematics shown in that link seems to match fine with the modern PS3 models (without tokins), i wonder what effect does to have all that amount of small 10uf ceramic capacitors together... but seems to be something generally used in other devices
 
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littlebalup said:
In fact, the Vin / Vout are maybe already tied by an internal layer (yellow tripe). So no need of an additional bridge, so its already a decoupling circuit.

I found an old dead VER-001. I'll remove all the tokin proadlizers to confirm or infirm that.
Click to expand...
Dunno, i have the vague idea i did read somewhere the wire is needed (incase of removing the 4 tokins of a group)
Not sure if the motherboard does it

In the datasheet of the tokin it can be seen there is an internal line inside the tokin that connects v_in & v_out... when you remove the 4 tokins you are "cutting" that line
The people that keeps one (or more) of the factory tokins doesnt needs the wire... but is because the tokins that are still present are doing the connection

So... is needed to remove the 4 of a group to check it
 
sandungas said:
Dunno, i have the vague idea i did read somewhere the wire is needed (incase of removing the 4 tokins of a group)
Not sure if the motherboard does it

In the datasheet of the tokin it can be seen there is an internal line inside the tokin that connects v_in & v_out... when you remove the 4 tokins you are "cutting" that line
The people that keeps one (or more) of the factory tokins doesnt needs the wire... but is because the tokins that are still present are doing the connection

So... is needed to remove the 4 of a group to check it
Click to expand...

I removed the 4 tokins of the cell right now. There is no more continuity between v_in anfd v_out. So my yellow stipe assumption is a shit...
 
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