PS3 Tutorial - NEC/TOKIN Capacitors Replacement - YLOD FIX

Discussion in 'Tutorials & Guides' started by Naked_Snake1995, Jul 15, 2019.

  1. 6,138
    5,809
    622
    sandungas

    sandungas Moderator Developer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    6,138
    Likes Received:
    5,809
    Trophy Points:
    622
    Location:
    Babylon 20xxE series
    Yep, he was replacing them by 4* 470uf though... so the examples i used are not very accurate of what he did, most probably was something like this:

    RSX tokin 1= 1100uf (lets say for some reason one of the tokins resisted well all the years of use)
    RSX tokin 2= 900uf (this probably is the most common wear out after years of use)
    RSX tokin 3= 600uf (this one was very damaged)
    RSX tokin 4= 470uf + 470uf + 470uf + 470uf (this is the one he replaced by tantalum caps)

    The resulting capacitance... well, dunno
    But the biggest problem is you have the tokin3 very damaged and is making the whole RSX group to be very inestable

    The only way to know this is by measuring the capacitance of the factory tokins... but you know... the only accurate way to meassure capacitance is "offboard" (after you desoldered it from the board)
    And here we are "destroying" the tokins to desolder them from the board... so is not posible to meassure them "offboard"

    If at some point you make some tests with all this (and incase you have a multimeter able to meassure capacitance), take a look at which values they gives you "onboard" (before desoldering them)
    As said, this capacitance value meassured "onboard" could not be realistic, but could be orientative

    Also, please try to confirm that the tokins are connected in groups of 4... by looking at the photos i think they are but i dont have a PS3 fat motherboard to check it
     
  2. 1,198
    1,229
    272
    littlebalup

    littlebalup Developer PSX-Place Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,198
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Trophy Points:
    272
    Location:
    43°36'16.0"N 1°26'36.1"E
    I'll check, measure, map... as usual. However, I'm not sure my capacitance meter is able to measure 4800uf... It will drain my meter battery in one shot...lol
     
  3. 294
    111
    72
    Luisile

    Luisile Member

    Joined:
    Feb 21, 2019
    Messages:
    294
    Likes Received:
    111
    Trophy Points:
    72
    Gender:
    Male
    Can anybody measure resistance betwen positive and negative lead on tokin on a working board? thank you
     
  4. 6,138
    5,809
    622
    sandungas

    sandungas Moderator Developer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    6,138
    Likes Received:
    5,809
    Trophy Points:
    622
    Location:
    Babylon 20xxE series
    Thanks, im interested in that details since time ago :)
    Im going to use a photo from a PS3 slim to show it, im not sure if what is at right of the photo is RSX, but for CELL is the same, and is the same schematic for all PS3 models
    [​IMG]
    My point is each 2 tokins are soldered in paralell (this is obvious by looking at the photos)... but the VIAS in the V_IN and V_OUT sides are connected with another 2 tokins at the other side of the board

    So electrically, the circuit is like this:
    [​IMG]
     
    Maroon Storm and Algol like this.
  5. 6,138
    5,809
    622
    sandungas

    sandungas Moderator Developer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    6,138
    Likes Received:
    5,809
    Trophy Points:
    622
    Location:
    Babylon 20xxE series
    ...and by replacing the tokins with tantalum capacitors what you are doing is this circuit
    [​IMG]

    As you can see, incase of replacing all the tokins is needed to use 1 wire to connect V_IN with V_OUT
    This is the wire i was discussing before... there is people that uses lot of wires for it, but only is needed 1 (use a thick wire btw)
     
    Maroon Storm likes this.
  6. 1,198
    1,229
    272
    littlebalup

    littlebalup Developer PSX-Place Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,198
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Trophy Points:
    272
    Location:
    43°36'16.0"N 1°26'36.1"E

    Capacitors work in parallel. So in parallel to the RSX connected to +2.5v and gnd.
     
  7. 92
    31
    67
    Fanhais

    Fanhais Member

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2018
    Messages:
    92
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    67
    Gender:
    Male
    we can scratch this holes for make the solder there ?
     
  8. 6,138
    5,809
    622
    sandungas

    sandungas Moderator Developer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    6,138
    Likes Received:
    5,809
    Trophy Points:
    622
    Location:
    Babylon 20xxE series
    Btw, the V_IN and V_OUT are the names refered to the tokin
    V_IN is the voltage that enters in the tokin, and V_OUT the voltage that goes out of the tokin

    The reason why that lines have different names is because inside the tokin are not directly connected together
    The tokins was doing some filtering of the current, to remove ripple, interferences, etc... and additionally it have capacitors inside
    We use to say the tokins are simply capacitors, but is not true... they was doing some more functions

    Anyway... when you remove all the tokins of the group of 4... then the lines previouslly named V_IN and V_OUT disconnects... this is why is needed to add 1 wire in between them
    And that line cant be named V_IN or V_OUT anymore... is the main voltage line for RSX (so we could say is RSX_V_IN)
    Yes, we was talking about it in other forum thread, i made some drawings suggesting the best places to do this, see this post https://www.psx-place.com/threads/c...one-game-ylod-style.20826/page-11#post-157707
    In this image i was suggesting to use 2 tantalum capacitors of 1000uf each (later i realized tantalum capacitors of 1000uf are not so common)
    [​IMG]
    But is better to do what is explained in this tutorial, because:
    -Are not needed much wires (so less risk of short circuits)
    -if you remove the tokins, the tantalum capacitors fits very well
    -incase you have one of the factory tokins in internal short circuit is mandatory to remove it
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
  9. 1,198
    1,229
    272
    littlebalup

    littlebalup Developer PSX-Place Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,198
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Trophy Points:
    272
    Location:
    43°36'16.0"N 1°26'36.1"E
    Original mount seems the "Filter circuit design" per the tokin spec. By bridging Vin-Vout, we transform it to the "Decoupling circuit design". We may replace the bridge by a coil.
     
  10. 6,138
    5,809
    622
    sandungas

    sandungas Moderator Developer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    6,138
    Likes Received:
    5,809
    Trophy Points:
    622
    Location:
    Babylon 20xxE series
    The tokins can work in 2 different modes, the way how sony used them in the PS3 is the "Filter circuit design"... so they are filtering the power line (and also working as capacitors)

    But if you remove all the tokins of a group (lets say the 4 for RSX), and connect v_in with v_out we are not transforming it into the "Decoupling circuit design"
    We remove all the internal circuits from the tokins that was doing the "filtering"... but we keep the function of the capacitors (with the new tantalums)

    So... not sure if is needed the coil... all people that was doing this repair made that bridging with just wires
     
  11. 1,794
    1,277
    297
    Naked_Snake1995

    Naked_Snake1995 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2017
    Messages:
    1,794
    Likes Received:
    1,277
    Trophy Points:
    297
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Graphic Designer
    Location:
    NEC/TOKIN wants to know your location
    . giphy.gif

    Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
     
  12. 6,138
    5,809
    622
    sandungas

    sandungas Moderator Developer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    6,138
    Likes Received:
    5,809
    Trophy Points:
    622
    Location:
    Babylon 20xxE series
    Lol, we are doing this basically, no magic inside :)
    [​IMG]





    Compare it with the other drawing i made before, is the same circuit :)
    [​IMG]
     
    Maroon Storm likes this.
  13. 1,794
    1,277
    297
    Naked_Snake1995

    Naked_Snake1995 Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 11, 2017
    Messages:
    1,794
    Likes Received:
    1,277
    Trophy Points:
    297
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Graphic Designer
    Location:
    NEC/TOKIN wants to know your location
    So wait, you're saying they are interconnected between each other, and only 1 Bridge point its required? Ive seem something like this.

    Sent from my G8141 using Tapatalk
     
  14. 6,138
    5,809
    622
    sandungas

    sandungas Moderator Developer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    6,138
    Likes Received:
    5,809
    Trophy Points:
    622
    Location:
    Babylon 20xxE series
    Yes, by all the small VIAS (holes) pointed by the gray arrows in this drawing:
    [​IMG]

    There are several types of VIAS, this ones seems to be of type 1
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Via_(electronics)
    [​IMG]
    At the other side of the motherboard you have more tokins connected to the same VIAS (im not sure about this, please check, but i would bet on it)

    This VIAS are also connected to an intermediate layer of the motherboard... and going back to a voltage regulator protected with a fuse (thermistor)... and going more back the regulator is connected to one of the main "power rails" of the motherboard

    So... the voltage comes from an intermediate layer of the motherboard... then in the VIAS goes to the most external layers of the motherboard at both sides... for the tokins
     
  15. 1,198
    1,229
    272
    littlebalup

    littlebalup Developer PSX-Place Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,198
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Trophy Points:
    272
    Location:
    43°36'16.0"N 1°26'36.1"E
    I exhumed a dusty dead KTE board to see how sony replaced the Proadlizers by tantalum capacitors.
    The tantalum capacitors are coupled with others additional ceramic capacitors between V+ and GND. I'm not seeing any aditionnal inductors/coils. That mount seems pure decoupling circuit as the example seen here : https://www.tokin.com/english/product/cap/proadlizer_closed_20140320/test2.html

    [​IMG]
     
    sandungas likes this.
  16. 6,138
    5,809
    622
    sandungas

    sandungas Moderator Developer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    6,138
    Likes Received:
    5,809
    Trophy Points:
    622
    Location:
    Babylon 20xxE series
    Just made this, hope is correct, keep attention at the direction of the red lines and arrows
    [​IMG]
    1) The voltage comes from an intermediate layer of the motherboard
    2) Then it "emerges" in the VIAS at both sides of the motherboard (for the tokins, 2 at each side)
    3) After the tokins then it returns using more VIAS to one of the sides of the motherboard (the opposite of the RSX side)
     
  17. 1,198
    1,229
    272
    littlebalup

    littlebalup Developer PSX-Place Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,198
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Trophy Points:
    272
    Location:
    43°36'16.0"N 1°26'36.1"E
    In fact, the Vin / Vout are maybe already tied by an internal layer (yellow tripe). So no need of an additional bridge, so its already a decoupling circuit.
    [​IMG]

    I found an old dead VER-001. I'll remove all the tokin proadlizers to confirm or infirm that.
     
  18. 6,138
    5,809
    622
    sandungas

    sandungas Moderator Developer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    6,138
    Likes Received:
    5,809
    Trophy Points:
    622
    Location:
    Babylon 20xxE series
    Good found btw, the suggested schematics shown in that link seems to match fine with the modern PS3 models (without tokins), i wonder what effect does to have all that amount of small 10uf ceramic capacitors together... but seems to be something generally used in other devices
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2019
  19. 6,138
    5,809
    622
    sandungas

    sandungas Moderator Developer

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    6,138
    Likes Received:
    5,809
    Trophy Points:
    622
    Location:
    Babylon 20xxE series
    Dunno, i have the vague idea i did read somewhere the wire is needed (incase of removing the 4 tokins of a group)
    Not sure if the motherboard does it

    In the datasheet of the tokin it can be seen there is an internal line inside the tokin that connects v_in & v_out... when you remove the 4 tokins you are "cutting" that line
    The people that keeps one (or more) of the factory tokins doesnt needs the wire... but is because the tokins that are still present are doing the connection

    So... is needed to remove the 4 of a group to check it
     
  20. 1,198
    1,229
    272
    littlebalup

    littlebalup Developer PSX-Place Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2014
    Messages:
    1,198
    Likes Received:
    1,229
    Trophy Points:
    272
    Location:
    43°36'16.0"N 1°26'36.1"E
    I removed the 4 tokins of the cell right now. There is no more continuity between v_in anfd v_out. So my yellow stipe assumption is a shit...
     

Share This Page