PS3 (Research/Experimental) - NEC/TOKIN Capacitors Replacement - YLOD

wrx884 said:
Just to add onto this in my experience ive found them across all early models but not always which i found very odd? even when opening a factory seal unit. I tend to remove them as my IR rework station generally moves them about and out of place upon removing the BGA's or somtimes i can easily knock them with my desolder braid so i found just removing is best so they dont sit uneven if they have moved and i dont notice. Is it recommended to remove these? i cant really say yes do it but for me it still worked fine since i found some with out them i saw no issue leaving them removed as long as i made sure my BGA's were 100% flat upon re-fitting. i just called these "stand offs" which basically as u described they are stands for the BGA's to sit/rest on.
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I was not sure which name to use for them, but the name "stands off" fits well with his purpose :encouragement:
Are used as a helper at factory when the machines assembles the CELL/RSX, this way the machines doesnt needs to calculate that disntance preciselly... is mostly like "push it until it touches the bumper"
And i think are very helpful incase of an overheating, because the pressure made by the heatsink assembly is very big, and in the overheats when the tin is semisolid could happen deformations (at microscope), but this "stand offs" prevents it

For the reballings i guess is better to keep them, not sure how annoying could be for reballing, but are good... lets say... are a feature :D

jacobsson said:
...By piggy-back I meant that you could solder a capacitor onto the legs of the original NEC tokins (in parallel) before removing them in order to check if it solves your YLOD problem. No need to remove the tokin before testing, assuming it's not a dead short.

On a side note:
Thanks to some testing done by @squeept we learnt that fully shorted NEC tokin could result in instant YLOD, so I'd first use a multimeter to check if the resistance between the ground and positive pads/legs to see that it's not a dead short. If so, obviously this NEC must be found and removed.
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This is an awesome idea btw, now im reading you and im facepalming for not figuring it myself, lol
As you said it should work unless there is some tokin in internal short (but this is easy to rule out with a multimeter)
You should add a note about this trick in the tutorial @Naked_Snake1995

And btw, thanks also to @Tupakaveli we know if the tokins are "opened" it shows another YLOD
He mentioned it in this post
https://www.psx-place.com/threads/t...eplacement-ylod-fix.25260/page-28#post-209830
His PS3 was working fine when he replaced the tokins of a side of the motherboard with tantalums, and at the next day he decided to replace the tokins at the other side (good decission btw, a decent repair implyes replacing all them)... but he forgot to add the bridge wire ;)
 
sandungas said:
I was not sure which name to use for them, but the name "stands off" fits well with his purpose :encouragement:
Are used as a helper at factory when the machines assembles the CELL/RSX, this way the machines doesnt needs to calculate that disntance preciselly... is mostly like "push it until it touches the bumper"
And i think are very helpful incase of an overheating, because the pressure made by the heatsink assembly is very big, and in the overheats when the tin is semisolid could happen deformations (at microscope), but this "stand offs" prevents it

For the reballings i guess is better to keep them, not sure how annoying could be for reballing, but are good... lets say... are a feature :D


This is an awesome idea btw, now im reading you and im facepalming for not figuring it myself, lol
As you said it should work unless there is some tokin in internal short (but this is easy to rule out with a multimeter)
You should add a note about this trick in the tutorial @Naked_Snake1995

And btw, thanks also to @Tupakaveli we know if the tokins are "opened" it shows another YLOD
He mentioned it in this post
https://www.psx-place.com/threads/t...eplacement-ylod-fix.25260/page-28#post-209830
His PS3 was working fine when he replaced the tokins of a side of the motherboard with tantalums, and at the next day he decided to replace the tokins at the other side (good decission btw, a decent repair implyes replacing all them)... but he forgot to add the bridge wire ;)
Click to expand...
When u replace all tokins in both sides of the board , the bridge wire is supposed to be in bottom or top of the board ? or in both sides?
 
SiegHart93 said:
1.- From what part of the board should i start ? from the top (in where the rsx and cell are not present) or from the bottom (in where they are present)?
Click to expand...
The fact is in the electrical circuit all the tokins of a side of the motherboard are connected directly with the other tokins of the other side, is like this:
Power rail ---> 4 tokins (2 at top, and 2 at bottom) ---> RSX
Power rail ---> 4 tokins (2 at top, and 2 at bottom) ---> CELL

So forget about what is top and what is bottom... what matters here is what is CELL and what is RSX ;)

The only difference in between top and bottom is what some people have mentioned before... the tokins at bottom (opposite side of components) doesnt have an active cooling, so they overheats more along all his life, so are more prone to failure by overheats
But... we dont know if are dying by overheat (most probably but we are not sure)

SiegHart93 said:
2.- Should i start with the RSX nec tokin or with the CELL nec tokin?
Click to expand...
The RSX goes first, his tokins are more prone to failure because the demanding voltage peaks of RSX varies a lot more than CELL
This can be deduce indirectly by looking at the temperature ingame... while you are playing the CELL has a more constant workload... but RSX varyes a lot
That variation in RSX heat is an indirect proof that his voltage requirements are varying too

But remember... RSX have 2 tokins at top of the motherboard and another 2 at bottom

The 2 RSX tokins at bottom (the ones that overheats more) goes first, then the other 2 tokins for RSX to complete his group of 4 tokins

After that you should make a test to see if the problem is fixed... then move to CELL and do the same

SiegHart93 said:
3.- Do i need to bridge the tantalums as many mentions in this post?
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Is mandatory if you replace the 4 tokins for either CELL or RSX

The tokins have that bridge internally, if you keep at least 1 tokin (from the group of 4) then you dont need the bridge wire

SiegHart93 said:
4.- The NEC/TOKIN capacitors of the CELL in my ps3 have this code 0E128 and the NEC/TOKIN capacitors of the RSX have this code 0E108, so im guessing that i can use 330uf tantalums in the RSX but im not sure.
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It doesnt matters what you use, the point is you need to equal (or exceed a bit) the original capacitance of the group of 4 tokins

4 tokins of 0E108 makes a total of 4000 uf
4 tokins of 0E128 makes a total of 4800 uf

SiegHart93 said:
5.- What is the best method to remove the NEC/TOKIN without damaging the board and the trails of the capacitor?
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By destroying them carefully :D
In this thread there is a talk where we was talking about it, i agree with everything @jacobsson @wrx884 said, they explained it better than me :)
https://www.psx-place.com/threads/ps3-cechg-nlod.26640/#post-210783

Is like removing tiny SMD leds... if you try to remove it without damaging the led is a waste of time, when you get close with the solder iron the plastic transparent material of the led breaks, so is imposible
the best thing you can do is to burn the madrefocker with the solder iron, then cleanup the burned plastic and residues, and then drop a huge ball of solder tin in top of it, this is going to work for sure, and is safe because the motherboard can handle that amount of heat without problems

SiegHart93 said:
Can i use tantalums from a dead mini laptop board ? they are 330uf but idk the voltage they use... i have a photo of the mobo i want to extract the tantalums.
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No, but mostly because you need a lot of them... in a PC motherboard you are not going to find so many

If you have problems to find the tantalum capacitors i guess you could use electrolitic capacitors (the standard ones)
This ones have a lot more capacitance, and are easy to find in PC motherboards, since pentinum 4 you are going to find a bunch around the CPU socket, and are rated up to 1500uf or so (very good for his size)
The problem incase of using this type of electrolitic capacitors is there is no room for them inside the "sandwich" of the metal shields that covers the PS3 motherboard, but well maybe you could make some mod in the metal shield (cuts, or holes, or whatever)
 
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jacobsson said:
Hi buddy! No problem at all. PITA is short for pain in the a* =)

By piggy-back I meant that you could solder a capacitor onto the legs of the original NEC tokins (in parallel) before removing them in order to check if it solves your YLOD problem. No need to remove the tokin before testing, assuming it's not a dead short.

On a side note:
Thanks to some testing done by @squeept we learnt that fully shorted NEC tokin could result in instant YLOD, so I'd first use a multimeter to check if the resistance between the ground and positive pads/legs to see that it's not a dead short. If so, obviously this NEC must be found and removed.
Click to expand...
Thought someone on another forum it impossible to get a reading when the nec tokin was in circuit
 
SiegHart93 said:
When u replace all tokins in both sides of the board , the bridge wire is supposed to be in bottom or top of the board ? or in both sides?
Click to expand...
It doesnt matters, next to the tokins (where are soldered the positive voltages) there are a lot of vias (holes) that connects both sides of the motherboard, so is like a single piece of copper that connects the tokins at both sides of the motherboard

Electrically is only needed 1 wire for every group of 4 tokins
In other words... 1 wire tor CELL... and 1 wire for RSX
That wire is who carries the positive voltage to CELL/RSX

For safety reasons (or because they never thought in doing it in a different way) there is people that uses 2 wires for each... and ive seen people that uses 4 wires for each
But dunno... i think is better with 1 wire each because is more simple, just use a thick wire for it (single core preferably)
 
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Well, if you meassure a capacitor "incircuit" you are going to have a reading, but that reading is composed by:
-the capacitor itself
-the capacitance of the circuit
-the capacitance of other components next to the capacitor you are meassuring

Incase the capacitor is ok... the resulting value should be always bigger than the capacitor
But thats all you are going to get, and we cant deduce much from it

Also, as i was mentioning in the PS3 the tokins are soldered together in paralell in groups of 4... so when you try to meassure the capacitance of a single tokin "incircuit" what you are meassuring is the total sum of the 4 tokins
 
sandungas said:
Well, if you meassure a capacitor "incircuit" you are going to have a reading, but that reading is composed by:
-the capacitor itself
-the capacitance of the circuit
-the capacitance of other components next to the capacitor you are meassuring

Incase the capacitor is ok... the resulting value should be always bigger than the capacitor
But thats all you are going to get, and we cant deduce much from it

Also, as i was mentioning in the PS3 the tokins are soldered together in paralell in groups of 4... so when you try to meassure the capacitance of a single tokin "incircuit" what you are meassuring is the total sum of the 4 tokins
Click to expand...
I see what you are saying yeah suppose theres ways of testing it from the top to bottom with a dmm to see the total dmm value of four nec tokin in parrell
 
And now that im thinking in it...
jacobsson said:
...By piggy-back I meant that you could solder a capacitor onto the legs of the original NEC tokins (in parallel) before removing them in order to check if it solves your YLOD problem. No need to remove the tokin before testing, assuming it's not a dead short.

On a side note:
Thanks to some testing done by @squeept we learnt that fully shorted NEC tokin could result in instant YLOD, so I'd first use a multimeter to check if the resistance between the ground and positive pads/legs to see that it's not a dead short. If so, obviously this NEC must be found and removed.
Click to expand...
sandungas said:
This is an awesome idea btw, now im reading you and im facepalming for not figuring it myself, lol
As you said it should work unless there is some tokin in internal short (but this is easy to rule out with a multimeter)
You should add a note about this trick in the tutorial @Naked_Snake1995

And btw, thanks also to @Tupakaveli we know if the tokins are "opened" it shows another YLOD
He mentioned it in this post
https://www.psx-place.com/threads/t...eplacement-ylod-fix.25260/page-28#post-209830
His PS3 was working fine when he replaced the tokins of a side of the motherboard with tantalums, and at the next day he decided to replace the tokins at the other side (good decission btw, a decent repair implyes replacing all them)... but he forgot to add the bridge wire ;)
Click to expand...
In the same way that is imposible to meassure the capacitance of a single tokin "incircuit" (the most you are going to get is the value of the total sum of the group of 4 tokins)

This trick you mentioned could work, but is not going to tell you which one is faulty
Lets say... the group of 4 tokins had a total capacitance from factory of 4000 uf (1000 each). And now after years of use it have 2940 uf

If you add a capacitor in paralell of... lets say... 1500uf (an electrolictic one from a old PC motherboard just for testing) and the Ps3 works, it means one of the tokins in that group of 4 is faulty

In my oppinion i think is good enought, i insist suggesting to replace all the tokins, because replacing only a few of them is not a serious repair
Is like a old car with an engine of 4 cylinders, and have a problem of compression in a cylinder... if you take that engine for a reworking to an specialist they are going to "drill" the 4 cylinders to make them bigger and recover his circunference
Sure, you can do only 1, but this is too much ghetto !!! is not a serious, you dont want that for your car (or you will regret)
The point is all the cylinders had the same usage, if one of them died it means the others are about to die, there is no need to make any test
 
Otherwise they would have to fit an oversized piston rings as the bore is bigger just to fill the remains of compression :)
 
Edwired said:
Otherwise they would have to fit an oversized piston rings as the bore is bigger just to fill the remains of compression :)
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Hehe, yes, and a kit of new pistons

I used the example of the car engine because is a bit like that, the cylinders of an engine works together at all times, so all them have the same usage
If the failure happened because fatigue then there is always one that dies first, and when that happens it means the others are about to die too

In electronics several components failing together at the same time exactly is very unfrequent, in this circuit of the PS3 with 4 tokins connected together what happens is when one of them fails then the others handles his work

So... wen one of the tokins (of the group of 4) decreases his capacitance is forcing the others to overwork
And as a consequence of this the lifespan of the others is shorted
In some way the damage is "spreaded" into the group of 4 tokins

Really, if there is 1 tokin damaged in the group of 4, the best repair you can do is to replace the 4
 
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sandungas said:
Hehe, yes, and a kit of new pistons

I used the example of the car engine because is a bit like that, the cylinders of an engine works together at all times, so all them have the same usage
If the failure happened because fatigue then there is always one that dies first, and when that happens it means the others are about to die too

In electronics several components failing together at the same time exactly is very unfrequent, in this circuit of the PS3 with 4 tokins connected together what happens is when one of them fails then the others handles his work

So... wen one of the tokins (of the group of 4) decreases his capacitance is forcing the others to overwork
And as a consequence of this the lifespan of the others is shorted
In some way the damage is "spreaded" into the group of 4 tokins

Really, if there is 1 tokin damaged in the group of 4, the best repair you can do is to replace the 4
Click to expand...
yeah that true similar principal in an led bulb when one led goes out the rest start to pick up the slack sometime one led goes the rest stops working
 
Hey if I'm getting YLOD at boot, and the yellow is only there for a brief second-then blinking red, is this consistent with capacitor issues?
 
Just realized I had a picture of piggy backing the caps:
DZeXX41.jpg
 
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sandungas said:
And btw, thanks also to @Tupakaveli we know if the tokins are "opened" it shows another YLOD
He mentioned it in this post
https://www.psx-place.com/threads/t...eplacement-ylod-fix.25260/page-28#post-209830
His PS3 was working fine when he replaced the tokins of a side of the motherboard with tantalums, and at the next day he decided to replace the tokins at the other side (good decission btw, a decent repair implyes replacing all them)... but he forgot to add the bridge wire ;)
Click to expand...

I didn't forget to add the bridging wires, I just wanted to test for myself what would happen without them :-p

Also it is necessary to use a certain wire gauge because my first set of bridging wires were too thin and melted lol.
 
i wonder would a pc power supply wire be strong enough as they would be big enough gauge in them or one of the wires off the kettle wire as they can handle the current as im just guessing here
 
Tupakaveli said:
I didn't forget to add the bridging wires, I just wanted to test for myself what would happen without them :-p

Also it is necessary to use a certain wire gauge because my first set of bridging wires were too thin and melted lol.
Click to expand...
How thin wire are we talking about?
 
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