The Rebug Team needs yet more feedback from you regarding the inclusion & status of Cobra

[kozarovv]

Oh man, the point of this poll is to either disable or remove, I'm not trying to add another headache .. lol

Yeah I get that. Maintaining Rebug isn't easy, maintaining two versions is probably p.i.t.a. In summary and to stay on topic. I don't see reason for removing Cobra. I used cobra long time without facing any incompatibility.

 

[sandungas]

Yeah, but at the beginning of the development since 4.65, there were some people who hated Cobra or any newer feature added to REBUG 4.65+. They still cry about it on these days.

The forum EOL is know for anti Cobra or multiMAN.

@sandungas can tell you all about it too


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The reason for disliking cobra is easy, is not built in a modular way
Cobra features can basically be separated in 3 groups
-Plugins support
-Emulator patches
-Backup managers support (ntfs, rawseciso, netiso)

If you think in how to build the firmware as a system architect, lets say you have several different ways and you can choose one (your best ideal), you have to prioritize some things, one of them is in wich enviroment is used each stuff
In my oppinion (and i bet estwald too and some others) the backup manager related features should be managed by backup managers
This way the "backup manager related" features only are loaded in the system at the time the backup manager is executed, not like cobra does that enables them at boot
Lets say you turn on the PS3 just to watch netflix... in that enviroment you dont need ntfs, rawseciso or other stuff from cobra
Cobra is loading that stuff unnecesarilly

And this is why mamba was born... to dischargue cobra from the functions that should be managed by a backup manager... technically it should make cobra lighter and more modular
For more modularity though as an intermediate solution it could be posible to port the ntfs, rawseciso and netiso to independant plugins... so this way every user could decide wich ones he wants to use
As example... lot of users doesnt needs (or even knows about) netiso

This is why the original iris was so popular, because it had some of those functions compelty independant of firmware
Other managers like multiman and webman depends of cobra for some of his funcions
At the time iris was in development by estwald there was still a few features from cobra missing (emulators, netiso) but managunz and the new mamba versions are advancing in this field

when webman was released lot of people moved from iris to webman though and stopped giving importance to this

 

[kozarovv]

Lets say you turn on the PS3 just to watch netflix... in that enviroment you dont need ntfs, rawseciso or other stuff from cobra
Cobra is loading that stuff unnecesarilly

Now I get why someone don't want cobra enabled by default. I respect this. But.. What is the true difference for them? Any out of memory situations? This functions also don't make cell or rsx work harder.

Is like turning off printer service on windows because you don't have an printer. In theory you freeing resources, but do you feel that in daily (or even extreme) usage?

 

[Joonie]

The reason for disliking cobra is easy, is not built in a modular way
Cobra features can basically be separated in 3 groups
-Plugins support
-Emulator patches
-Backup managers support (ntfs, rawseciso, netiso)

If you think in how to build the firmware as a system architect, lets say you have several different ways and you can choose one (your best ideal), you have to prioritize some things, one of them is in wich enviroment is used each stuff
In my oppinion (and i bet estwald too and some others) the backup manager related features should be managed by backup managers
This way the "backup manager related" features only are loaded in the system at the time the backup manager is executed, not like cobra does that enables them at boot
Lets say you turn on the PS3 just to watch netflix... in that enviroment you dont need ntfs, rawseciso or other stuff from cobra
Cobra is loading that stuff unnecesarilly

And this is why mamba was born... to dischargue cobra from the functions that should be managed by a backup manager... technically it should make cobra lighter and more modular
For more modularity though as an intermediate solution it could be posible to port the ntfs, rawseciso and netiso to independant plugins... so this way every user could decide wich ones he wants to use
As example... lot of users doesnt needs (or even knows about) netiso

This is why the original iris was so popular, because it had some of those functions compelty independant of firmware
Other managers like multiman and webman depends of cobra for some of his funcions
At the time iris was in development by estwald there was still a few features from cobra missing (emulators, netiso) but managunz and the new mamba versions are advancing in this field

when webman was released lot of people moved from iris to webman though and stopped giving importance to this

Rawsec and netiso are not included in the Cobra itself, it only has a support for backup managers to use them when needed. For ex) iris manager itself includes rawsec,

And multiman and webMAN generate when needed.

So to modularize each feature, backup manager can include separate payloads for each feature so that way Cobra's one binary does not have to support them all.

It is very hard to include One payload to modularize each feature unless there's separate payload.

Long time ago, You and I had a long discussion about rawsec being included in the firmware which I have never done. I've been telling you that backup managers including webMAN, IRIS and multiMAN have them

But I do like the idea of removing all the extra stuff from REBUG 4.65 and go back to pre 4.46, because it will become less burden to me.



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[sandungas]

Rawsec and netiso are not included in the Cobra itself, it only has a support for backup managers to use them when needed. For ex) iris manager itself includes rawsec,

And multiman and webMAN generate when needed.

So to modularize each feature, backup manager can include separate payloads for each feature so that way Cobra's one binary does not have to support them all.

It is very hard to include One payload to modularize each feature unless there's separate payload

rawsec and netiso in the practise are part of cobra because are mandatory, using the reseved slot 0
What i was saying is to take them out of the payload and convert them to .prx

Long time ago, You and I had a long discussion about rawsec being included in the firmware which I have never done. I've been telling you that backup managers including webMAN, IRIS and multiMAN have them

But I do like the idea of removing all the extra stuff from REBUG 4.65 and go back to pre 4.46, because it will become less burden to me.

I know iris had rawsec and iso support independant of cobra years ago, i used to read about each feature implemented in iris when estwald was active
I think in our conversation was some missunderstanding, we had a few of those and i noticed you didnt liked some :P, i guess is because my spainglish that sometimes my critics are not taken very well and there is not a fluid talk

 

[sandungas]

Btw, i voted Cobra included & disabled for 2 reasons

Team rebug are the mantainers of the most advanced fork of cobra, if rebug stops using cobra its evolution could be affected negativelly (in the deep i like cobra, i love the plugins support, and i think the way is used to develop patches and functions related with the emulators is perfect for devs)

Disabled, because there is people that doesnt needs it, like iris and managunz users that only needs a few features

 

[sbp]

I can only think that the most pure cfw would be the best idea as far as online options go and with ALL other options handled threw the toolbox based on firmware standard/toolbox features which I understand cfw & toolbox devs would need to agree on in order to make this all work. I think the toolbox is very underutilised in its current state especially with recent development methods. Cfw makers that actually add new features/code would have to work with toolbox maintainer's, this alone could help development of cfw features vs ofw features.

 

[Joonie]

rawsec and netiso in the practise are part of cobra because are mandatory, using the reseved slot 0
What i was saying is to take them out of the payload and convert them to prx

Fyi, it does reserve slot 0, but when Cobra boots all slots are empty state and managers inject those two plugins from themselves (like webman creates its own child plugin to remap kensaku to swap with) when games are mounted, this is the part you never understood

You're asking if Cobra can externally inject its code to support those two external plugins from the backup managers, like psnpatch.prx support without psnpatch opcodes inside the payload

@habib any thoughts on this? Nobody has managed such things like this

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[sandungas]

You're asking if Cobra can externally inject its code to support those two external plugins from the backup managers, like psnpatch.prx support without psnpatch opcodes inside the payload

@habib any thoughts on this? Nobody has managed such things like this

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No, i meant in "porting" them to .prx to enable them by adding the file path in /dev_hdd0/boot_plugins.txt
This way people could disable them just by editing the .txt

 

[Joonie]

No, i meant in "porting" them to .prx to enable them by adding the file path in /dev_hdd0/boot_plugins.txt
This way people could disable them just by editing the .txt

they are not even boot plugins.. again Cobra payload itself does not include those two plugins.

Cobra is coded to use those two plugins that BACKUP MGRs either include as external prx plugin, or create (@deank's way of doing without leaving external plugins on the internal hdd which is why You Can't see them inside the PKG or plugin itself)

Which is also why SLOT0 is ALWAYS empty although they are reserved for those two plugins until Managers provide them for Cobra to inject those plugins to Slot0 then empty it out after being used

You keep thinking like Cobra unnecessarily include them within the payload all the time


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[sandungas]

they are not even boot plugins.. again Cobra payload itself does not include those two plugins.


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Still, the code related to loading them is part of the cobra payload

But i can tell you the same with debug features... if converted to an optional prx then cobra would be better and more popular
Same with emulator features, some people doesnt uses game formats other than PS3
Actually, there has been an user in this thread that doesnt needs any backup feature, nor rawiso, netiso, or any emulator patch

There is people that considers the most important feature of cobra is the plugin support, the others are extras

I know, all im saying is not so easy at all... but i hope you realize why some people doesnt uses cobra

 

[Joonie]

Still, the code related to loading them is part of the cobra payload

But i can tell you the same with debug features... if converted to an optional prx then cobra would be better and more popular
Same with emulator features, some people doesnt uses game formats other than PS3
Actually, there has been an user in this thread that doesnt needs any backup feature, nor rawiso, netiso, or any emulator patch

There is people that considers the most important feature of cobra is the plugin support, the others are extras

I know, all im saying is not so easy at all... but i hope you realize why some people doesnt uses cobra

I already stated as you said, it's not easy but doable if multiple payloads for each flavor are available like @aldostools does with his wMM projects that has modularized prx files.

Which is also why Cobra can be toggled

But your suggestion is somewhat very inefficient. Because majority users like All-in-one solutions that have multiple compatibility with one thing.

Let's be honest, you liked the rawsec implementation that Estwald did with psx and ps3 iso for mamba, and now you're asking me to take them off and make it togglerable. I really don't understand why you keep insisting on this particular subject


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[lord3490]

Is like turning off printer service on windows because you don't have an printer. In theory you freeing resources, but do you feel that in daily (or even extreme) usage?

That's how I see it too
And if enabled by default anyone who wants it disabled can do so via toolbox (or services.msc if we are talking about the printer service )
I understand both sides, but since cobra doesn't really hurt and I believe there are more users with cobra enabled then disabled, it would make sense to enable it by default.
However, I am happy as long as cobra is enableable (I don't believe that word exists, but it sounds right here ).

 

[psykosis]

As long as I can enable cobra, i'm happy. Even if its some separate "plus" package or something.
This might even be more "purist" per se. It then relies all troubleshooting for cobra/webman on the maintainer of the installer..
I mean, we had cobra installers, or something for a while iirc....

just an idea..

 

[sandungas]

Let's be honest, you liked the rawsec implementation that Estwald did with psx and ps3 iso for mamba, and now you're asking me to take them off and make it togglerable. I really don't understand why you keep insisting on this particular subject

Not sure if you noticed but i was not writing any suggestion in this thread or the other for the pools about what people wants for cobra and webman on rebug
I voted in them, but i was not suggesting anything or making any request because i dont care, i dont use them because doesnt fits with my needs
Also, i never went behind you asking to do this or to do that in irc or any forum, the times we tolk about how the firmware or custom features "should" work was because you put the subject in the table and you wanted to know my oppinion so i said what i think... maybe you prefered me to agree about everything and lie to myself ?, sorry im not like that, in spain there is a proverb that says "who loves you well will make you cry" (because is going to tell you the raw true even if it hurts)
If you dont like to hear critics dont ask, if im writing in this thread is because you quoted me in a message at the same time you said people cryes about it to you
Actually the last day we tolk in irc and you said you was planning to make a rebug lite (few weeks ago) i didnt say anything to you, because i know you know my oppinion and i like the idea... im not going to push you to do it with things like "thats great, i love it, etc..." because you know already i like it, i dont want to influence you

But you keep saying the people that complains are crybabies, or they doesnt understands, additionally to to the people that thinks the others that doesnt likes cobra are pirates, or from some kind of third world country, hillbillies that doesnt knows anything about scene, or other offensive stuff

Keep thinking like that and taking it personally and you will never understand that some people thinks the scene has evolved to something like this
http://www.oddee.com/_media/imgs/articles/a341_c1.jpg
There is a wide audience that wants that, because is trending topic, or fashion tendence or other hipster word used nowadays that sounds cool and neato, and they loves that
But in the meanwhile there are others that looks at it and facepalms and tell to his friend "loool, look at that"

*Again... dont take it personal... that car is the whole PS3 scene, and the driver is the majority

 

[MOST Hated]

Cobra included & enabled by Default

 

[nCadeRegal]

@Joonie I was thinking that goal of Team Rebug is making as much advanced and functionality CFW as possible (judged by all Rebug releases in opposite to other CFW). I love all those patches and cannot imagine "simplified Rebug" which You described.

@nCadeRegal Do You like ODD noise?

yes it soothe's me to sleep at night....lol, instead of putting lil one in the car I just fire up the ps3 and put a disc in, works every time... I do like how current setup is though in the fact that it is included and is as simple as going into tool box and toggle on and off. Rebug is such an awesome firmware, I'd hate to see any features removed at this point, then standalone pkg's that would need installed after. I hope this never happens

 

[habib]

Cobra enable by default, webman disabled

Pros:
1.ps2 toggle would be not needed, i think size would be enough to qualify to be included in fw and no more full editions to be downloaded seperatly
2.some people complain because they have not enabled cobra, less of those

Cons:
???

 

[Joonie]

Not sure if you noticed but i was not writing any suggestion in this thread or the other for the pools about what people wants for cobra and webman on rebug
I voted in them, but i was not suggesting anything or making any request because i dont care, i dont use them because doesnt fits with my needs
Also, i never went behind you asking to do this or to do that in irc or any forum, the times we tolk about how the firmware or custom features "should" work was because you put the subject in the table and you wanted to know my oppinion so i said what i think... maybe you prefered me to agree about everything and lie to myself ?, sorry im not like that, in spain there is a proverb that says "who loves you well will make you cry" (because is going to tell you the raw true even if it hurts)
If you dont like to hear critics dont ask, if im writing in this thread is because you quoted me in a message at the same time you said people cryes about it to you
Actually the last day we tolk in irc and you said you was planning to make a rebug lite (few weeks ago) i didnt say anything to you, because i know you know my oppinion and i like the idea... im not going to push you to do it with things like "thats great, i love it, etc..." because you know already i like it, i dont want to influence you

But you keep saying the people that complains are crybabies, or they doesnt understands, additionally to to the people that thinks the others that doesnt likes cobra are pirates, or from some kind of third world country, hillbillies that doesnt knows anything about scene, or other offensive stuff

Keep thinking like that and taking it personally and you will never understand that some people thinks the scene has evolved to something like this
http://www.oddee.com/_media/imgs/articles/a341_c1.jpg
There is a wide audience that wants that, because is trending topic, or fashion tendence or other hipster word used nowadays that sounds cool and neato, and they loves that
But in the meanwhile there are others that looks at it and facepalms and tell to his friend "loool, look at that"

*Again... dont take it personal... that car is the whole PS3 scene, and the driver is the majority

No worries, I got what you're saying, I don't need you to agree with me. I just want to find more reasons that make sense to me but I guess you're tired of repeating the same thing about your opinion.

You're more of developer's mindset while I am thinking of enduser's mindset.

That's where it separates us.

Ok reading back your previous posts, it reminded me some old users who wanted to use webMAN with estwald's system manager plugin for fan control

Basically some people wanted to see Cobra can become like estwald and MLT's core-like

Which its payload includes all the features but can be toggled by individual flags.

This CAN be a lot easier than taking the whole code out and add it externally on demand.

Because Cobra works as a server and Backup managers are just clients.

You can't let clients to modify Servers unless you take the full control of the server which usually needs to refresh or reboot the server (meaning payload reload and lv2reboot) which was why I said separate payload is needed for each flavor (can be done with multiple mamba payloads, like mamba v2 and v3) Managunz is advancing it and getting close to what you prefer, because it gives much choices for those who appreciate the difference

So yeah As a conclusion, flagging could be done so that way users can only use boot plugins support without Cobra's iso features so that way they can use old iris method to play backup while using some other vsh plugins. But this also requires some works done on the back up managers.

FYI @sandungas @Zar



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[sandungas]

Dunno @Joonie there could be different aproachs, small payloads, flags like MLT you mentioned, or things like that, but for making that kind of changes is needed to know how all cobra code works, also maybe even a few new ideas

The point of all i said is to make cobra the most efficient and modular posible and with the smaller memory footprint by keeping only the critical functions as part of the "core" and making all the "extras" optional so the users can chose wich "extras" they wants and remove the others

Like the debug features you mentioned before... it could be handy to be able to disable them because most people doesnt uses them... and the ones that uses only needs them eventually
But the result after doing this "by-user optional removal of debug features" should result in a more smaller cobra, less memory footprint, etc...
If there is not a performance improvement then is useless because is just working as a "lock"
Rewriting cobra just to add some locks doesnt looks like a real solution to the problem

So as said... this needs big changes in cobra, and im not requesting something like that, could be nice imo but for you team rebug is not the best timing to work in something like that
Is a bit offtopic in this thread anyway now you are about to start working in a new release for the next weeks, it could fit beter in another thread specific for cobra, and also is mostlly about system design and throwing ideas of how to make cobra more modular