PS2 [Open PS2 Loader] Game Bug Reports

[TnA]

@jolek: He is talking about backwards-compatibility...

You both are still partially off, because the 'speed' of the standards (i.e. Bandwidth) you 2 are talking about, is very unlikely to be the cause of any issues, but rather the 'ping'' between the devices... (i.e. answer-time/callback-time, but not even necessarily on the cdvd-emu-driver, but rather the driver which manages the connection between the PS2 and the HDD or the HDD-Driver), causing another threading...

In the end, the 'threading' and how it can affect 'answer-times', probably is the issue-culprit and the threading is affected by ALL of these tests, since page 6!

That various setups and various builds affect these specific modes is a very clear indicator, that those 'speeds' (bandwidth and answer-time) and some other things seem to indicate the above. This Thread-time-variations are also one cause of why it is impossible to make a 100% accurate cdvd-emu-driver.


A similar example: You can have a high bandwidth and a high/bad ping and a website will load slowly... but the same applies when you have a low/good ping, but a bad bandwidth...

The causes are mutually different and the outcome is still very similar! I bet it is the same here...

...and that 'non-PS2-related' example is just, to make a more vivid/visual explanation.
...and it perfectly illustrates, that those different speeds are not semantics but factually different things.

 

[Grahf]

@jolek The game will never work with anything faster than UDMA0. It's obvious there's going to be a crash with UDMA1. I said this in my first post about SoE.

For me, MDMA2 + Mode 2 + Mode 3 + Mode 6 + Mode 8 make the game perfectly playable on every single boot.

Exactly that combination, no other. If you turn off any of those modes or add any other mode, it will fail. It also won't work with MDMA0 or anything above UDMA0. Since I have a standard internal 5200RPM HDD, I'm sure MDMA2 will work for most people. If there are issues, try MDMA1, MDMA2 and UDMA0. Nothing else will work.

 

[jolek]

You have 5200 or 5400 RPM HDD?
I have 7200 RPM, so there's a difference.

UDMA0 will not work on your config, not mine.
You don't know what other peoples have.
Assuming that, if it's work on my config, it'll work on other is nonsens.
Especially for this game.

 

[TnA]

For me,

Exactly... On your setup...

Since I have a standard internal 5200RPM HDD,

That is an interesting info tho... Essentially slower than @jolek's HDD like I presumed...

I'm sure MDMA2 will work for most people.

You are 'sure'? How?
I agree that it would PROBABLY work on most setups, but POSSIBLY/quite likely not on all...
But even tho I think you might be right about that transfer-modes PROBABLY working for most on that game, this is still not factual but assuming...


@jolek:

UDMA0 will not work on your config, not mine.

He said 'above' UDMA0 (which means UDMA1-4) would not work on any (especially his) setup!

 

[jolek]

@TnA I have started this game with UDMA1 once, played for a while and everything was fine.
Next time I cannot launch this game (stuck at 1st loading screen).
So assuming it's impossible to run it, play it... IMHO in not right.

What I'm trying to tell, it is not so simple, especially for this game.

Mostly if game is crashing, etc mode 6 is needed.
This setting will work I think on most configuration.

This game (State of emergency) seems to have different problems,
setting UDMA1, UDMA0... sometimes helps, sometimes not in my config.

We don't know for now, what is gonna happens on other configs, except @Grahf.

Other games works as they should with compatibility modes included even in compatibility lists.
Marc Eckō's Getting Up: Contents Under Pressure needs mode 3+6 with OPL 1200.
With OPL 0.9.3 it can launch normally.

This game (State of emergency) is a pain in the...

 

[Grahf]

You have 5200 or 5400 RPM HDD?
I have 7200 RPM, so there's a difference.

UDMA0 will not work on your config, not mine.
You don't know what other peoples have.
Assuming that, if it's work on my config, it'll work on other is nonsens.
Especially for this game.

I have a 5200RPM HDD, like I said in my post. 200RPM won't make any difference, though.

It's not nonsense at all because of what I told you before about the backward-compatible nature of MDMA and UDMA devices. They will automatically slow down with slower modes. Setting the MDMA2 mode will work on most internal PS2-compatible HDDs out there. The only actual differences here come from different seek times. The faster the HDD, the less compatible it will be with PS2 games. The idea that you can force PS2 games to work with any speed is nonsense. You'd basically have to reprogram most games in the PS2 library.

Going back to SoE, I already told you there is no way to make it work with any UDMA mode faster than 0. This will be true for all users. The game simply freezes with such fast data transfers. However, there might be slight variations with the slower modes. If you're having problems, check only from MDMA1 to UDMA0. Anything faster won't work as a rule for this game.

Again, on my config it works every time. It doesn't matter if I use 0.9.3, 1200 or 1220, so we can at least rule out OPL versions as being a factor here.

Just for clarification, simply picking the MDMA2 mode won't make it work at all. It only works with that combination of compatibility modes (2+3+6+8) AND MDMA2.

BTW, @jolek: did you check your HDD with HDD Checker? Was it optimized and checked for errors and S.M.A.R.T.? It won't hurt to double-check.

 

[jolek]

There is a way to start this game with UDMA1 as I already done it, so it's not true.
You are still assuming that is impossible, because it is not working in your setup.
I never had 5200 RPM HDD, min RPM I always have has at least 5400 RPM.
Even 200 RPM makes a difference.

This game need fix, not to set MDMA2 and mode 2+3+6+8, because it may fails on some configs.

For now this game needs in my config different UDMA, MDMA modes.
Compatibility modes are the same.
Different revisions may acts differently on some configs (including mine).

On a side note, it's strange that this game works with OPL 0.9.1\0.9.2 without any additional modes.
Maybe later it needs mode 2, MDMA 0\MDMA 2....
But not to turn on almost all modes (2+3+6+8) in OPL 0.9.3 or higher.

BTW Badore90 needed mode 2 + MDMA0:
https://github.com/ifcaro/Open-PS2-Loader/issues/158#issuecomment-448377530.

 

[Peppe90]

It worked this way (mode 2 + MDMA0) with the Gamestar NA (that's maybe a little faster than the SONY NA).

I seem to remember that even with the og SONY NA this game worked the same, at least using the BITFUNX SATA board. But I can not put my hand on the fire about it (I set all my iHDD games with OPL 0.9.3 about 2 years ago, I don't perfectly remember…).

Now I'm using the og SONY NA with the maxdiypower SATA board. The game never goes Beyond the first loading screen.

One thing I noticed:
I boot this game, then IGR (immediately or after it freeze, it doesn't make difference), start Ferrari challenge trofeo pirelli and got the freeze at the second loading screen (I can solve this cold loading the HDD with Ule), it's the only game that cause this.

But I'm now thinking that it can be related to the MDMA change… I'll do some tests.

And thank you jolek for adressing me here, I'll try Grahf settings

 

[TnA]

I keep it short... It really points to the threading causing varying time-amounts of 'replies'/'pings'/etc.

The bandwidth and CBT-Stuff merely triggers it... @sp193 already mentioned that assumption before (in this thread) and I tend to agree with his conclusions!

 

[TnA]

@TnA I have started this game with UDMA1 once, played for a while and everything was fine.
Next time I cannot launch this game (stuck at 1st loading screen).
So assuming it's impossible to run it, play it... IMHO in not right.

This does seem to point to a timing-issue...
If it were not, it should work every time.

Just like a ping to a server... Once you get 17ms, once 38ms, once 23ms, etc.

What I'm trying to tell, it is not so simple, especially for this game.

Mostly if game is crashing, etc mode 6 is needed.

Well, Mode 6 is rather to save RAM and to avoid incompatibilities with the games code and IGR.
It does however also affect the threading!

This setting will work I think on most configuration.

This game (State of emergency) seems to have different problems,
setting UDMA1, UDMA0... sometimes helps, sometimes not in my config.

Which seems to indicate a timing-issue... IMO.

We don't know for now, what is gonna happens on other configs, except @Grahf.

Well... Worth a test, tho'! I will test it later and others are welcome to post their results as well.

I have a 5200RPM HDD, like I said in my post. 200RPM won't make any difference, though.

It does make a difference, but I tend to agree that it is probably marginal...
The seek-times of the 'head' and how much the game-partition is scattered around the disc, probably has more influence.

It's not nonsense at all because of what I told you before about the backward-compatible nature of MDMA and UDMA devices.

You both are right and wrong... but since the root of the issue is probably somewhere else, 'playing around' with the transfer-modes is just cosmetics again.

Even tho' most people can probably use the same settings, that does not mean that entire crowd can... The setup seemingly does make a difference... Even when just you 2 test it, we have a different outcome... That atleast points to 'different hardware/setups MIGHT need different Compatibility-Settings'!

They will automatically slow down with slower modes.

Aaaah.... No... That's just an over-simplification, but I understand the overall consensus of it.

Setting the MDMA2 mode will work on most internal PS2-compatible HDDs out there.

Even tho' I tend to agree on the conclusion and settings-suggestion, your claim is based on an assumption here...
But at least the other posts you made (since ignoring me, lol) are actually contributions and mostly factual. I see an improvement there.

The only actual differences here come from different seek times.

Indeed! That is true for the most part + newer HDDs usually support more 'ops' (operations per second), than older HDDs.

The faster the HDD, the less compatible it will be with PS2 games.

While I think it is quite plausible and true for some games (maybe 30%), your statement here is still a general assumption and not backed by enough facts (yet)!

The idea that you can force PS2 games to work with any speed is nonsense. You'd basically have to reprogram most games in the PS2 library.

It is not and most games already run faster... But ~30% don't work when a certain speed is reached! MOST games however are actually capable of getting the things transferred faster than the fastest theoretical speed of the Disc-drive.

Going back to SoE, I already told you there is no way to make it work with any UDMA mode faster than 0.

Yes you did... I pointed it out to @jolek as well!

This will be true for all users.

This is an assumption (again), which you do not have enough evidence to back it up yet!
No sane dev will make changes to the structure, if there is not enough evidence to back something up... Nothing against some ideas in general... I am just stating facts (like a robot)...

The game simply freezes with such fast data transfers.

The question is... 'Why?'
If a patch could be applied in an easy way, it is preferable for many reasons to do it. The most important reason being, that we could have unlimited transfer-speed on this game.

However, there might be slight variations with the slower modes. If you're having problems, check only from MDMA1 to UDMA0. Anything faster won't work as a rule for this game.

Even tho' I tend to agree on the general premise, I have to say, this... 'Anything faster won't work as a rule for this game.'...is a generalized assumption based on the fact that it does work that way on your setup... Have you tried it on another HDD (possibly even of the same size, age and usage)?

Again, on my config it works every time.

I believe you!

It doesn't matter if I use 0.9.3, 1200 or 1220, so we can at least rule out OPL versions as being a factor here.

But it does change the behavior on @jolek's setup, so we can not rule it out AND you are making assumptions again, based on your setup...

Just for clarification, simply picking the MDMA2 mode won't make it work at all. It only works with that combination of compatibility modes (2+3+6+8) AND MDMA2.

He did mention also activating these modes.

BTW, @jolek: did you check your HDD with HDD Checker? Was it optimized and checked for errors and S.M.A.R.T.? It won't hurt to double-check.

Yes, that's actually an interesting idea...
He could also look for the HDDs status in/on a PC tho'...

There is a way to start this game with UDMA1 as I already done it, so it's not true.

Well like @sp193 and I already said and like I replied to this specific case... It could be a timing-issue!

You are still assuming that is impossible, because it is not working in your setup.

I agree! He does and I also think, that this is wrong...

I never had 5200 RPM HDD, min RPM I always have has at least 5400 RPM.

Me too!

Even 200 RPM makes a difference.

Well... Yes, it probably does... but I also tend to agree that it is probably a marginal difference... The 'seeks' (of the head) are probably much more influencing...

This game need fix, not to set MDMA2 and mode 2+3+6+8, because it may fails on some configs.

I am note entirely sure yet, but you might be right about a patch to the game being a better choice. Some others o those which depend on Transfermode-Changes probably could need that as well!

For now this game needs in my config different UDMA, MDMA modes.
Compatibility modes are the same.
Different revisions may acts differently on some configs (including mine).

.. pointing to a timing-issue caused by different threading, causing different 'answer-times', triggered due to different transfer-speeds... Oh God, that seems complex, lol...

On a side note, it's strange that this game works with OPL 0.9.1\0.9.2 without any additional modes.
Maybe later it needs mode 2, MDMA 0\MDMA 2....
But not to turn on almost all modes (2+3+6+8) in OPL 0.9.3 or higher.

All these things could contribute to varying 'answer-times'!

BTW Badore90 needed mode 2 + MDMA0:
https://github.com/ifcaro/Open-PS2-Loader/issues/158#issuecomment-448377530.

Interesting! Another test doesn't hurt and it certainly gives an interesting insight...
3 different testers, 3 varying modes... I will test it on varying hardware as fast as possible.

 

[Grahf]

There is a way to start this game with UDMA1 as I already done it, so it's not true.

I know because I booted this game with all MDMA and UDMA modes, but it will never work properly with anything faster than UDMA0. With UDMA1, it can boot, but it will freeze later on. It is true. My setup has nothing to do with this because this game simply fails at such high speeds. No matter what setup you'll use, this game will fail with anything faster than UDMA0.

Even 200 RPM makes a difference.

Realistically, it doesn't make a difference.

This game need fix, not to set MDMA2 and mode 2+3+6+8, because it may fails on some configs.

These modes are exactly for fixing games. You're saying that it would be more convenient to patch this game, but it doesn't mean these modes don't fix it because they literally do just that. Without them, it doesn't work. With them, it works (every time, I'll add).

As for configs: it's been known since the start that some HDDs are more compatible than others. This is nothing new. It was always like that, even before OPL existed.

Maybe later it needs mode 2, MDMA 0\MDMA 2.... But not to turn on almost all modes (2+3+6+8) in OPL 0.9.3 or higher.

I told you before, that's not the case. It won't work with any other combination. It needs Mode 2 + 3 + 6 + 8 and MDMA2 or UDMA0 (at least on 5200-5400RPM HDDs). I've checked all possible combinations and that's the only one which works. Mode 2 alone won't do anything for this game. I guess I should have made that video because you seem to somehow not believe it, lol?

BTW Badore90 needed mode 2 + MDMA0:

Pre-0.9.3. I tested on 0.9.3, 1200 and 1220. I don't care about OPL before 0.9.3 because it has horrible performance.

 

[TnA]

I know because I booted this game with all MDMA and UDMA modes, but it will never work properly with anything faster than UDMA0. With UDMA1, it can boot, but it will freeze later on. It is true.

That might be true and I think it is for your setup...

My setup has nothing to do with this because this game simply fails at such high speeds. No matter what setup you'll use, this game will fail with anything faster than UDMA0.

That's a generalized assumption based on your setup again... AND the culprit is very likely NOT the transfer-modes, which has been mentioned to you by multiple people (not just me), but you tend to ignore anything which doesn't match your narrative...

Realistically, it doesn't make a difference.

You don't know that, but are again just assuming it... It could have an influence of a few ms... However the seeks are much more likely to cause delays.

These modes are exactly for fixing games. You're saying that it would be more convenient to patch this game, but it doesn't mean these modes don't fix it because they literally do just that. Without them, it doesn't work. With them, it works (every time, I'll add).

But we can't apply the same modes on every setup... THAT is a problem! His idea/approach is not bad actually!

As for configs: it's been known since the start that some HDDs are more compatible than others. This is nothing new. It was always like that, even before OPL existed.

Does that mean there is nothing which can be done about it? NO!

I told you before, that's not the case. It won't work with any other combination. It needs Mode 2 + 3 + 6 + 8 and MDMA2 or UDMA0 (at least on 5200-5400RPM HDDs). I've checked all possible combinations and that's the only one which works. Mode 2 alone won't do anything for this game. I guess I should have made that video because you seem to somehow not believe it, lol?

Well, actually it is quite easy to believe this, as well as I believe @jolek, that this does not work on his setup... Lol

 

[Grahf]

And thank you jolek for adressing me here, I'll try Grahf settings

Whether you're using the vanilla version of 0.9.3 or the latest beta (1220), it should work on a standard internal HDD with MDMA2 + Mode 2 + Mode 3 + Mode 6 + Mode 8. If I turn off even one of these, the game doesn't work at all, it just freezes on the first loading screen. With that combination, it works perfectly. I played it for quite some time. Everything loads just fine, nothing stutters.

It is not and most games already run faster... But ~30% don't work when a certain speed is reached! MOST games however are actually capable of getting the things transferred faster than the fastest theoretical speed of the Disc-drive.

This is not true. Most games load faster, but don't work properly because of it at some point. Nobody made a true compatibility list as it is humanly impossible to 100% test all PS2 games. For example, I don't see any compatibility list saying that the Devil Summoner games on PS2 freeze randomly with anything above MDMA0. The lists just say they are compatible with HDD, without specifying that fact. The testers all just assume they work with fast data transfer because they didn't play them long enough to run into a random freeze. Or Persona 3, which indeed works even with UDMA4, but it stutters with that mode during battles, whereas it gets smooth with MDMA0. Weird, but true. It's common sense that very fast HDDs, made many years after PS2, will have a lower compatibility because they are simply too fast. A lot of OPL problems are with speeds and/or timing. Using modern, ultrafast HDDs/SSDs will only intensify this problem.

 

[TnA]

@Peppe90: Your post just appeared in the midst of the page...

There seems to be a pattern there... I wonder if I would need PIO on an SSD to get it (that specific game) running, lol...

How faster the setup, so slower the access-standard... (needed) [it seems]
Lol

Even if the cause might be different... The behavior of slower and faster setups certainly is just like I had seen/envisioned in my 'precognition'... (and quite contrary to what could be seen, if Grahf's assumptions were correct)

 

[TnA]

Whether you're using the vanilla version of 0.9.3 or the latest beta (1220), it should work on a standard internal HDD with MDMA2 + Mode 2 + Mode 3 + Mode 6 + Mode 8. If I turn off even one of these, the game doesn't work at all, it just freezes on the first loading screen. With that combination, it works perfectly. I played it for quite some time. Everything loads just fine, nothing stutters.

I highlighted the important thing...

This is not true. Most games load faster, but don't work properly because of it at some point. Nobody made a true compatibility list as it is humanely impossible to 100% test all PS2 games. For example, I don't see any compatibility list saying that the Devil Summoner games on PS2 freeze randomly with anything above MDMA0. The list just say they are compatible with HDD, without specifying that fact. The testers all just assume they work with fast data transfer because they didn't play them long enough to run into a random freeze. Or Persona 3, which indeed works even with UDMA4, but it stutters with that mode during battles, whereas it gets smooth with MDMA0.

True... But these are of those ~30% that I mentioned in that specific post/part you quoted and the PCMCIA-Variation ('ExpansionBay') also already limits the speed, so there is no unlimited speed-increase anyway which means for ~70% of these games there won't be any problem... (at least not due to bandwidth which is related to the connection, but possibly by timings which is related to the processors and threading on those, not the connections...)

On another note: 'this is not true'? Oh! I didn't knew that you debugged those games and identified the cause of them needing these transfer-modes... So it is bandwidth and not timing in that case?

Weird, but true. It's common sense that very fast HDDs, made many years after PS2, will have lower compatibly because they are simply too fast.

Is that common sense? I'm part of the PS2-Homebrew-scene since 2002 and that's still quite a news to me...
It also still does seem to indicate timing-issues and possibly related to threading.

A lot of OPL problems are with speeds and/or timing.

True!

Using modern, ultrafast HDDs will only multiply this problem.

How to put it blantly and short?!

'unfounded (based on too many assumptions) generalization'
I agree however, that it makes it MORE LIKELY, but for other reasons than you've mentioned.

 

[Peppe90]

Pre-0.9.3. I tested on 0.9.3, 1200 and 1220. I don't care about OPL before 0.9.3 because it has horrible performance.

No, I was on OPL 0.9.3 and need only MODE 2 and MDMA 0 with the Gamestar NA.

It worked even with only MODE 2 but not Always, it was a hit or miss… What TnA is saying make sense.

About the HDD speed I don't think it actually affect the compatibility. I mean, maybe there can be slight differencies in which MODE you have to enable, that's all. I used either IDE and SATA HDD, 5400/7200rpm, from 80gb up to 2tb with both Gamestar NA and SONY NA and all my games (409) to work perfectly with every configuration.

 

[TnA]

Well, it depends on what you are referring to with 'speed'.

Obviously different setups can have a different effect, but they don't seem (to be) DIRECTLY related to 'speeds' (in regards to bandwidth), but rather timings... Not necessarily CDVD-Emu-timings but possibly either HDD-Driver-timings or ExpansionBay (DEV9 and SMAP) related driver-timings at that it seems.

So I agree, if you meant 'bandwidth' or possibly even 'transfer-mode'.


Edit: Ah, I think now I get what you were referring to... The difference between 5200/5400/7200/etc
Yes, that difference is probably marginal and won't have much of an effect. It does however not mean that there will be no effect!

It seems you can use a higher transfer-mode on slower HDDs, so there is a difference which seems to be related to the physical disc-speed (rotations of the pattern per minute).

 

[Grahf]

No, I was on OPL 0.9.3 and need only MODE 2 and MDMA 0 with the Gamestar NA.

It worked even with only MODE 2 but not Always, it was a hit or miss… What TnA is saying make sense.

About the HDD speed I don't think it actually affect the compatibility. I mean, maybe there can be slight differencies in which MODE you have to enable, that's all. I used either IDE and SATA HDD, 5400/7200rpm, from 80gb up to 2tb with both Gamestar NA and SONY NA and all my games (409) to work perfectly with every configuration.

With an official Sony NA and a 5200RPM internal HDD, this game works every time on 0.9.3 and the latest beta with this combination of modes (and yes, the speed transfer mode makes or breaks it):

MDMA2 or UDMA0 + Mode 2 + Mode 3 + Mode 6 + Mode 8

It never boots without that combination for me on 0.9.3 and the latest beta.

 

[TnA]

Noone says, it does not work this way on your setup... I think we all believe you, that it does... That still doesn't qualify for those modes to be the 'Zen combination' (™©® @sp193) for every setup...
Actually @sp193 stated just that, when using that statement/acronym...

He said, that there probably is no 'Zen combination' for all setups and that this is probably threading-related (as a root-cause).

I still tend to agree on his 'assumption', because every single test in the last pages indicates, that what he 'assumed' (if not even knew) is correct!


It works for you... Fine! But obviously, it doesn't work for all (Noone else yet, on their specific setups...)!

He (@Peppe90) just stated, that it works with an entirely different combination on HIS setup...

 

[Algol]

I remember that @Algol had different experience with SSD, for some games he needed to enable also mode 1.
In my setup there is no chance to get this game at least pass 1st loading screen with MDMA2.
What does it means that it won't work properly with MDMA1?



I've even tried to remove settings, enable compatibility modes and "hit" test.
Currently I cannot run this game with OPL 1220. Nothing seems to help.
For me latest version that works was 1200 from AKuHAK bot\script.
I cannot get it to work with El_Patas builds, not even with 1200.

I'll also need to re-try it with "clean" OPL 0.9.3.

Bonjour @jolek

Je suis désolé de te contredire mais je n'ai jamais utilisé de SSD pour jouer à des jeux PS1 (voire PS2) mais seulement des disques SATA dans une PS2 de type FAT avec l'adaptateur IDE/Ethernet de SONY et une petite carte d'adaptation de "Maxiydie" (si mes souvenirs sont bons) parfaite pour ce travail. Les disques utilisés sont des 320 et des 500 Go mais jamais plus.

Joyeuses fêtes de fin d'année 2018 à vous tous.